avi@pegasus.UUCP (02/09/84)
seismo!carey asks: C Why do I never see the word Satan in this newsgroup and why does A everyone blame God for bad things that happen, but I never see anyone R blame Satan for the bad things that happen? Is this a totally dumb E question or does it deserve an answer even? Thanks to anyone who cares Y to answer it, in advance. It is not a "dumb" question, but it does assume that others believ in the same mythology as you do, and don't have their own mythologies. I am sure we have covered part of this in this group before, but I am jumping into the fray again. The assumption appears to be that although "GOD" is omnipotent and eternal (and 9 Billion other names and superlative adjectives) s/he loses control over the universe because of something called "Satan". I find this hard to swallow. Either there is one supreme being with these qualities, or I might as well be an atheist. I can't understand subdividing the godhead into a "Father", "Son" and a "Holy Ghost/Spirit". I also can't understand the Devil/Satan/.../Beelzebub subdivisions. If this supreme being is not in control of Satan, then they are not supreme. If they can control, but choose not to, then they must take responsibility for all the actions performed (at least according to my morality on this issue). Therefore, saying that Satan is responsible, is just a way of saying that "G-d" represents all Good Things, and that we are praying to him/her to keep only the good things coming. As Tim Maroney has often said, I would prefer to worship a being that can take responsibility for everything that happens, and who allows themselves to be judged. (I may be paraphrasing Tim rather loosely here -- but I am not a Thelemist either). Western deities don't seem to qualify. For some reason, the issue of God/Satan reminds me of the old question of "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?". As Isaac Asimov once said, this situation can not happen. In a UNIVERSE that contains an irresistible force, there can (by definition) not be an immovable object!! The same is true for a universe with an immovable object .... I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that logic of this sort does not work when talking about religion. In religious "dogma", God is both an irresistible force AND an immovable object, and allows heavies like Satan to do the dirty work of testing the faith people (like two day-old children) have in him/her. As I say, I despair being able to have a "logical" discussion about this, because most religions ( "most" :== less than all ) are not based on logic as applied to our universe. Does this even partially answer the question of why we blame the "boss", instead of the underling who is just following orders? P.S. The above does not indicate that I believe in any of the entities being discussed. I am using those names for the sake of argument. I neither blame nor give credit for anything that happens to outside entities. I believe in the supreme laws of chance, and the perturbation imposed on them by the Holy Heisenberg, Schrodinger and other followers. I believe that future prophets will tell us more definitively about the undecidability at the lowest levels of creation. This does not mean that I am not fond of religious and cultural things in my personal life. It just means that I doubt that God interferes in my life on a daily basis. P.P.S. The above remarks are not specifically intended to be negatively oriented toward seismo!carey, or Christianity. The remarks are generally oriented toward religions that split their deity into several separable parts. To a large extent, Judaism used to let G-d take responsibility for all actions. More recently, particularly in the Chassidic movement, mysticism has reared its (ugly?) head again, and the "Yetzer Horah" (the evil inclination -- one potential topic for net.religion.jewish) has taken a role analogous to the Christian Devil. I am against this development too. I don't know enough about Islam, and other religions, to comment properly. Can anyone else comment? -- -=> Avi E. Gross @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6241 suggested paths: [ihnp4, allegra, cbosg, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!avi
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (02/16/84)
>It is not a "dumb" question, but it does assume that others believ in the >same mythology as you do, and don't have their own mythologies. >I am sure we have covered part of this in this group before, but I am >jumping into the fray again. The assumption appears to be that although >"GOD" is omnipotent and eternal (and 9 Billion other names and superlative >adjectives) s/he loses control over the universe because of something called >"Satan". I find this hard to swallow. Either there is one supreme being with >these qualities, or I might as well be an atheist. The Christian God does take resposibility for at least allowing everything that happens. And further, in the Christian era he has transferred some of that responsibility to the Church. For instance Ephesians 1:21-23 shows "Christ rules there (ed - at the right hand of the Father) above all heavenly rulers, authorities, powers, and lords; he has a title superior to all titles of authority in this world and in the next. God put all things under Christ's feet and gave him to the church as supreme Lord over all things." ( TEV or Good News Translation). The implicit question of a rational skeptic is forever "Why doesn't He do something about the problem of evil?" And after obtaining either no answer or an usatisfying one the rational skeptic adopts a uniformitarian approach to the problem : "He ain't done anything yet and by extrapolation nothing will be done in the future." Although books have been written on the subject, I propose a simple (or simplistic) non-original thought on the nature of evil. There is no such thing as ontological evil. Evil is the lack of something (i.e. Godliness and all that entails) It appears to me that no real freedom can exist for humans if they don't have the ability to reject a relationship with the Creator. And this is where evil enters the picture. By rejecting God's way and substituting our own way ( as Adam did long ago) we are diminished in stature. And notice I implicitly assume that I was there in Adam genetically That decrement is what I believe evil is. I also believe and have observed that the natural bent of humans as they come from the womb is to do wrong and go their own way. As the father of three boys, I have noticed that I have never had to instruct them in doing wrong or in being rebellious. >I can't understand subdividing the godhead into a "Father", "Son" and a >"Holy Ghost/Spirit". I also can't understand the Devil/Satan/.../Beelzebub >subdivisions. If this supreme being is not in control of Satan, then they >are not supreme. If they can control, but choose not to, then they must take >responsibility for all the actions performed (at least according to my >morality on this issue). Therefore, saying that Satan is responsible, is >just a way of saying that "G-d" represents all Good Things, and that we are >praying to him/her to keep only the good things coming. >As Tim Maroney has often said, I would prefer to worship a being that can >take responsibility for everything that happens, and who allows themselves >to be judged. (I may be paraphrasing Tim rather loosely here -- but I am not >a Thelemist either). Western deities don't seem to qualify. Tons of material has been written on the Trinity which is a testimony of sorts about its relative density. Since I infer Avi Gross' back- ground is Judaism, I refer here to the Name used frequently in Genesis for God. Without any background in Hebrew, I will repeat some things I have heard. Elohim - As I understand the Name is in a plural Hebrew form for THREE or more. El ( Supreme , Top , Ultimate)ohim Now it fascinates me that this plural form apparently takes a singular article and singular verb form in the Scriptures Is this some supportive textual evidence for the Great Three-in-One? Are there any Hebrew scholars on the net who care to teach us(me) about this matter? Bob Brown {...pur-ee!inuxc!ihnp4!clyde!akgua!rjb} AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga (404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784
scc@mgweed.UUCP (Steve Collins) (02/20/84)
You have been given the power to overcome satin if you wish to use it. God gave you a free will. You make the choice. All the questions you posed are discussed in the BOOK.