david@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Norris) (02/20/84)
Jon White, explaining how free will and omnipotence relate (or don't relate): >Let me see if I can explain this a little better. It should be obvious that an > omnipotent and omniscient being would not be constrained by "our" time. > Therefore, God, by definition, is in a constant state of being everywhere >(past, present, and future) at once. Because God exists in the future (as well > as everywhere else), it stands to reason that there must be a future out there > for Him to exist in. That is why I claimed that God must have created the > entire lifetime of the universe at the moment of creation. And, of course, if > the entire lifetime of the universe already exists, all of our individual > destinies are preordainded by God. Is this clear? No. Are you saying that none of us have free will, or that God (as Christians think of Him) doesn't exist because we have free will? >> ...it seems to me that any proof that God has some >> limit to his power is going to be flawed because it is based on finite >> reasoning. I often wonder if proponents of such arguments are themselves >> unaware of the limits that time imposes on their thinking... > I have never been impressed by arguments such as this. What you are basically > saying is that God is so far beyond our understanding, that it is pointless to > even try. (Whoops, gag, choke) Let me get those words out of my mouth! No, I never said that (although I do believe God is far above our understanding). Perhaps you have not put your view plain enough. It seems you are offering us a choice: A) None of us have free will, or B) God is not as omnipotent as we (Christians) make Him out to be. Is that right? I'll wait for a response before "knocking down any strawmen", as we are all fond of saying. -- David Norris :-) -- uw-beaver!ssc-vax!david
bch@unc.UUCP (Byron Howes ) (02/21/84)
While I can't pretend to speak for Jon White, I think I understand what he is trying to say. It isn't really free will vs. omniscience, but rather than given omniscience, free will becomes somewhat irrelevent. Incidentally, this isn't a new problem for christianity. The Calvinists hit it dead-on and came up with a rather unique perception of grace and salvation that is still held by some flavors of Baptists today. First, let's take the theology out and merely hypothesize a being that is omniscient with respect to time and space -- that is to say that its perceptions are such that all things at all times and places are seen haas happening in the 'here' and 'now.' (This is a bit confusing, but such a being would have presumably found a way to adapt to it.) Given a sufficiently large viewpoint, such a creature might see a human life as a human being might see a piece of yarn on the floor: birth a death are events connected by something which is either straight or tangled but have no other implied relationship (Please! do not read any symbolism into that analogy, it is only a convenience.) To this being, the beginning is the beginning and the end is the end. The endpoints of the yarn are not so much determined as they simply are in a state of existence. It really doesn't matter much whether the yarn knows where it is coming from or where it is going to. That is largely immutable. The Calvinists, seeing this, allowed that any individuals state of grace had been determined and was unchangeable. To question one's status, however, tantamount to blasphemy -- challenging G-d. One worked as hard as one could, however, do *demonstrate* one's status in this world as material possessions were seen to be a sign of grace along with success. Needless to say, Calvinism did not enjoy extreme popularity among the poor. In this sense, the notion of predestination exists irrespective of free will. It isn't that G-d has set people down and wound them up like little automatons to make preset choices, but that the outcome of the choices -- in fact the choices themselves -- are seen as are the knots and tangles of a string of yarn. I hope this helps and I welcome corrections to the Calvinist notion of grace described above as it has been a while since I studied it. -- "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" Byron Howes UNC - Chapel Hill (decvax!mcnc!unc!bch)
cng@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (02/22/84)
<> From Byron Howes: >> Incidentally, this isn't a new problem for christianity. The Calvinists >> hit it dead-on and came up with a rather unique perception of grace >> and salvation that is still held by some flavors of Baptists today. ... >> >> The Calvinists, seeing this, allowed that any individuals state of >> grace had been determined and was unchangeable. To question one's >> status, however, tantamount to blasphemy -- challenging G-d. One >> worked as hard as one could, however, do *demonstrate* one's status >> in this world as material possessions were seen to be a sign of >> grace along with success. Needless to say, Calvinism did not enjoy >> extreme popularity among the poor. >> >> In this sense, the notion of predestination exists irrespective of >> free will. It isn't that G-d has set people down and wound them >> up like little automatons to make preset choices, but that the outcome >> of the choices -- in fact the choices themselves -- are seen as are >> the knots and tangles of a string of yarn. >> >> I hope this helps and I welcome corrections to the Calvinist notion >> of grace described above as it has been a while since I studied it. Calvinism is also the view of salvation held by most flavors of Presbyterians. The central theme of Calvinism is that God is sovereign over all His creation including salvation, i.e. because man is dead in his trespasses and sin, God must resurrect him from the dead in order that man may have a new relationship with God. Since man is spiritually dead he can do nothing to affect his own salvation, therefore God must choose to save some and pass by others. If God chooses those Whom He will save, then it follows logically that Christ need only have died for those Whom the Father has chosen and the Spirit need only quicken or make alive those who are chosen and for whom Christ has died. It should be noted that most of the objections to Calvinism have come from within the Christian community, not because it doesn't make sense (logically), but because many Christians just don't care for these doctrines. The Anabaptists in Europe made the strongest stand against Calvinism. Calvinism develops the doctrine of predestination found in the Bible. Concerning predestination, the Westminster Confession of Faith (the expression biblical truth used by most Presbyterian and Reformed churches) says: God from all eternity did by the most wise counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. Calvin had the following to say: Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. Regarding Byron's observations concerning Calvinism and the poor, I have been a student of the teachings of Calvin and other Reformers for a number of years I was not aware that material goods were a sign of divine blessing. In fact most of the Reformers, including Calvin, lived very simple lives and lashed out at the gaudy opulence of the Roman Catholic church. In fact, history shows that in those instances where the tyranny of the Roman church was thrown off the populace flocked to the Reformed churches. This was true in Switzerland and also in Germany and Scotland. It is true that Calvinism teaches ones condition here on earth should reflect the eternal relationship which God has provided, however, this condition is not judged in terms of one of material wealth, but of spiritual wealth. Doing good to others is the sign that one has been justified and is being sanctified by God. Calvinist see the acquisition of material goods as a means to helping others. We do not acquire things just to have them, but that we might provide for the needs of others and show God grace to all. For more information on the teachings of Calvinism and its practical side I suggest: "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., Phila., PA Tom Albrecht -- Burroughs Corp. ...{presby|psuvax|sdcrdcf|bpa}!burdvax!cng P.O. Box 235 (215) 269-1100 Downingtown, PA 19335