gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/01/84)
I think that the concept of "before time" is fairly ludicrous, for a
couple of reasons.
1. It is generally held that time is circular, like the universe.
2. If time isn't circular, it runs from -inf to +inf, like a time line.
In any case, before time makes no sense. About "outside time", it is
postulable that a being could exist "out of time", that doesn't
necessarily make him exist for all time, but just that he is not
constrained to the flow of time. I have considered what would be
mathematically necessary for someone to travel in time (not just faster
than "c", but to be able to traverse the time line/circle just as we
traverse a highway or the globe). It would be necessary for that being
to "step out" of the time stream, i.e. to extend his "navigable"
universe into the fourth dimension. An example.
Consider an ant walking a wire of infinite length and zero width.
Also assume it is impossible for him to fall off, therfore he can only
go forwards and backwards. Also assume the ant is of zero mass/volume.
(try hard :-) For him then, the universe is parameterized as
f(x,t), where x is the forward/backward distance he travels, and t is
the time for traveling from point x1 to x2.
Note that he has no concept of y or z -- although they exist (as we
observe them) they do not exist for him because it is impossible for him
to travel in them. Now, if we replace the wire with a flat plane, his
parameters now increase to (x,y,t).
Now consider "us". We live in the three-dimensional world,
parameterized by f(x,y,z,t). Like the ant had no navigational ability
of y and z, we cannot navigate t. We are subject to the flow of t, but
cannot move independently of t. For us to move "outside of time", we
must move out of 3-space into 4-space, into something like (x,y,z,t,q).
Far be it for me to fingure out what q is though.
I hope I haven't lost anybody. My main point was to illustrate that
"before time" is not relevant, but God probably exists outside of time
in the sense that he is able to travel within it and not necessarily
that he exists at every point in time.
Back to flamage :-)
--
By the power of Grayskull!
Greg-bo, Prince of Eternia, Defender of the Secrets of Castle Grayskull
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds (UUCP)
Gds@XX (ARPA)ark@rabbit.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (03/02/84)
Time is Nature's way of preventing everything from happening all at once.
rej@cornell.UUCP (Ralph Johnson) (03/02/84)
Here is a proof of determinism. Let p be the proposition "On March 4 I will dye my hair green." By the law of the excluded middle, (p or not p) is true. Suppose p. Then if I do not dye my hair green there will be a contradiction, therefore I HAVE NO CHOICE but to dye my hair green. Suppose not p. Then if I dye my hair green there will be a contradiction, therefore I HAVE NO CHOICE but to refrain from dyeing my hair green. Conclusion, I HAVE NO CHOICE ... determinism is true. Now, I don't believe this proof. The problem is with using the law of excluded middle to compare a future event with a current event. However, I think this proof is just as valid as the ones claiming that Omniscience implies Determinism. The problem is that these ideas are very difficult to reason about. (For those who are confused, net.religion has been engulfed in a long and seemingly futile discussion of the premise that Omni => Det.) (This "proof" may also be used as an argument for constructive logic.) Ralph Johnson rej@cornell decvax!cornell!rej
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (03/04/84)
Ralph Johston is not quite correct in demonstrating that the law of excluded middle proof for determinism are equivalent to the "omniscience implies determinism" argument. he is quite correct in entitling this article "time", however. the Law of Excluded Middle is a slippery proof. You must ignore things like Shroedinger's cat, for instance, but this is merely a side-issue. The basic issue is "what is Truth?" (so howzzat for a basic metaphysical question?). the question is, is it time dependent. The existence of a creator-God pretty well defines Truth to be a) absolute and b) not-changing with time. Thus, The Law of Excluded middle is a useful proof when talking about omniscient creator-Gods. However, if you do not have a creator-God to worry about (as I never do unless I am arguing in net.religion!) then the definition of Truth becomes crucial. I believe that truth is very time dependent. Truth is *what is now*. Truth is also *what was before*. Truth has nothing to do with future events. When the future event that is predicted passes through the precise moment of time known as "the present" then, and only then can the truth of the predicition be known. Okay? Here is what this means -- 2000 years ago, it was not a true statement to say "Reagan is president of the United States in 1983." In 1983 it is a true statement. In 1982 it is a prediciton which can be considered to be likely. 2000 years ago, it is meaningless noise, and thus not-true. 2000 years ago, there was no "United States" and there definitely was no Reagan. There was no calendar dating from the time of Christ. There was no modern English. There were no things called presidents. Even if you translated the sentence into words that would have meaning in the countries of that time you still would have something that could nt be said to be 'true' . Of course, it could not be said to be 'false' either -- in that its contradiction "Reagan is not president of the United States in 1983." is not true. What have I done? Opened up the "middle". Good bye, "law of excluded middle", for I beleive tha you only refer to the truth of something which is very time dependent. This claim, though, you not was not made of God. I have not claimed that determinism follows from God knowing my past -- just His knowing of the future, which in fact says that "truth" (defined as what God knows) is eternal and not time dependent. This one, of course, I do not buy. -- Laura Creighton (NOTE NEW ADDRESS) utzoo!laura
mam@charm.UUCP (Matthew Marcus) (03/05/84)
Time is an illusion; lunchtime, doubly so.
Ford Prefect, a character in "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
by Douglas Adams
{BTL}!charm!mamgds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/07/84)
<wombat food>
Time ... keeps flowing like a river ... (Alan Parsons)
Time is like a clock in my heart (Boy George)
Too busy thinkin' bout% (:-) my baby, and I ain't got time for nothin'
else (Marvin Gaye)
No time for a gentle friend, no time for the love you send (Burton
Cummings)
.
.
.
I guess it's time I quit, right? :-)
--
By the power of Grayskull!
Greg-bo, Prince of Eternia
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds