gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/01/84)
<wombat food>
I'd like to get the net's response to Reagan's proposal to put prayer in
public schools. My personal opinion is that it is probably not a good
idea, due to the non-Christians in the classroom. This reminds me of
when I had to say the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school. Some
kids who were Baptists couldn't say it, presumably it was against their
religion.
--
By the power of Grayskull!
Greg-bo, Prince of Eternia, Defender of the Secrets of Castle Grayskull
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds (UUCP)
Gds@XX (ARPA)ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (03/01/84)
-- >>> I'd like to get the net's response to Reagan's proposal to put prayer in >>> public schools. My personal opinion is that it is probably not a good >>> idea, due to the non-Christians in the classroom. This reminds me of >>> when I had to say the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school. Some >>> kids who were Baptists couldn't say it, presumably it was against their >>> religion. Yes, horribly inconvenient. All that heathen rabble lousing things up. YOU SILLY PERSON!!! Prayer MUST be kept out of public schools because (1) The practice of religion is not consistent with the goals of secular education, and (2) Even if it were, educators are so inept that they could not do it right. American public schools are already a dismal failure because, among other things, they have concentrated on "values education" at the expense of skills in language and math. You can't teach kids to be virtuous persons if they don't know how to think. I say make them literate, not devout. That's dangerous, of course--literate people sometimes figure out that there is no god, and then (oh, no!) some even write a book about it. But then, for every Bertrand Russell there's a Martin Buber. It's a pity so many public school graduates do not have the skills to understand them. Maybe if those kids prayed hard enough... -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 01 Mar 84 [11 Ventose An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7261 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***
scc@mgweed.UUCP (Steve Collins) (03/02/84)
Has anyone read the bill?? Does it say that you must pray in school, or that if you wish to you may...
decot@cwruecmp.UUCP (Dave Decot) (03/03/84)
The bill is always promoted by its supporters as "allowing our children to pray in school." This has never been illegal. The bill actually undoes an earlier law that forbade public schools to have periods of group prayer with a leader. The proposed bill would therefore "allow our schools to make our children pray in school or feel left out." Dave Decot "Hindus are pupils, too." decvax!cwruecmp!decot (Decot.Case@rand-relay)
lied@ihlts.UUCP (Bob Lied) (03/04/84)
> Has anyone read the bill?? Does it say that you must > pray in school, or that if you wish to you may... It is NOT illegal to pray if you wish. What is illegal is for the students to be led in prayer by someone in authority, leaving the students no choice in the matter (or leading them to believe they have no choice) -- thereby violating their freedom of religion. The proposed "voluntary" prayers are hardly acceptable, since the overpowering Christian stench in this country makes any attempt to pray to other than a Christian God a conspicuous event, and liable to anything from humiliation to censure. Not to mention the possibility that some choose not to pray at all (horrors!). Headed for the 9th circle of Hell, Bob Lied ihnp4!ihlts!lied
bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (03/05/84)
As was pointed out on ABC's morning show Sunday, "As long
as there are math tests, kids will pray in school!" Nothing
*now* prevents kids from praying in school if they want to.
What I object to is having the state step into this
area which I consider to be very personal and private. As
for "voluntary", how many kids would want to stand out in
a crowd and assert their rights *not* to "meditate"?
--
Bill Jefferys 8-%
Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail)
{ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!utastro!bill (uucp)
utastro!bill@ut-ngp (ARPANET)krista@ihuxr.UUCP (k.j.anderson) (03/06/84)
<ay yi yi>
And what would we do to the naughty little children who won't
cooperate? Make them eat coals or what?
Prayers in the schools is the worst form of religious coercion
possible. It belittles the concept of freedom of religion and is as
unfair to sincere religionists as well as to atheists and etc.
Would you accept a political commercial in your church or
temple or whatever? Separation of church and state is beneficial to
both church and state.
Although some seek power in both religious and political arenas
by forming a coalition, these are expedient and unscrupulous people
who would degrade our civil liberties for their own benefit.
^$%&*^*(&^&%^ ihuxr!krista (k.j.anderson) <:-(co@cbscc.UUCP (Corinna Owens) (03/06/84)
A questions concerning prayer in public schools: Is someone going to be leading these prayers? If so, who? If I had a child, I would not want my child's teacher leading a prayer for the class. This would give a teacher the opportunity to impress upon the children his or her beliefs. And I am sure teachers don't want to waste time giving the class timeout for prayer. The children already have enough useless time out of the classroom during the school day (for example three recesses a day). This is my view on the matter: a child who wants to say a prayer can do so during lunch or recess, or whenever. Many times I pray here at work during a free moment and I disturb no one. If I don't have a free moment then I can wait until I get home. The public schools are just not the place for some enforcement of timeout for prayer. Our country is supposed to have separation of church and state. I sure wouldn't like it if the government stated churches must take time out of their services to allow for political thought. ---------------------- Corinna Owens AT&T Bell Laboratories cbosgd!cbscc!co
andrew@inmet.UUCP (03/07/84)
#R:mit-eddi:-137900:inmet:11600014:000:3044
inmet!andrew Mar 6 21:36:00 1984
There is not and never has been any law or court decision restricting the
rights of any individual to pray wherever he or she chooses! Reagan, as
usual, has all of his facts mixed up (perhaps deliberately in order to turn
a 20-year-old dead horse into a hot political issue and divert attention from
the obvious failure of his Middle East policy); the Supreme Court decisions
he flames about so ignorantly overturned laws REQUIRING teachers to lead
classes in oral prayer (NY) or Bible reading (PA). Those decisions were
correct then and are every bit as correct now... render to Caesar, etc.
Reagan's latest lie (concerning the proposed amendment about to be debated
in Congress) is that no state would be allowed to compose a prayer to be
said in schools and that no student would be forced to participate. The
former implies that a prayer will indeed be recited in class, only it will be
composed by someone other than the state (if not by the state, then by whom?
Does it matter?). The latter is dangerously unclear: does it mean that any
student choosing not to participate may remain silent or leave the room? Or
does it mean that a student wishing to be excused from participation would
be required to supply parental permission in writing?
What Reagan really wants is mandatory school prayer. Ignore all attempts to
sugar-coat it as 'voluntary'; there is no such thing. Peer (and teacher)
pressure is a powerful force upon impressionable young children; see the 3/5
issue of that tool of Godless Communism (a.k.a. The Wall Street Journal) for
an account of (among other things) elementary-school children being told that
they would go to Hell unless they attended (illegal) school-sponsored prayer
meetings. This is a prime example of the religious tyranny that the founders
of the US sought to abolish!
Supporters of mandatory school prayer are a) diverting a portion of their
children's religious upbringing to a secular body of dubious ablility in this
area, and b) overlooking the fact that any group-led, oral prayer may contain
ideas in conflict with their own religion. Reagan, of course, is counting on
the fact that few voters think the least bit rationally, especially on highly
emotionally-charged issues such as this; cf. his non-sequitur during the '82
Congressional race about the "big spenders who took God out of the classroom".
Andrew W. Rogers, Intermetrics ...harpo!inmet!andrew
733 Concord Ave. ...hplabs!sri-unix!cca!ima!inmet!andrew
Cambridge, MA 02138 ...uw-beav!cornell!esquire!inmet!andrew
(617) 661-1840 ...yale-comix!ima!inmet!andrew
PS: Another indication of Reagan's {political skills | advancing senility} is
his recent attempt to blame declining SAT scores on the aforementioned Supreme
Court decisions. Unfortunately, he failed to offer any explanation for
similar declines in SAT scores of parochial school students, who I assume pray
to their hearts' content without any interference from Big Government or
"liberal" courts.pellegri@ittral.UUCP (Dan Pellegrino) (03/07/84)
When I was in grade school, the first-things-of-the-day ritual was to hear the
playing of "The Star-Spangled Banner" on the P.A. system, recite the Pledge of
Allegiance, hear the morning announcements and then pause for thirty seconds of
silent meditation. During the thirty seconds, one could pray to whomever they
wish (silently) or simply reflect on something. Even before I became a
Christian (which I now am) I thought that it was a good idea to encourage our
children, as they live in this high-paced world, to stop and reflect once in a
while. Now that I am a Christian, I think that if I was a Christian back in my
school days, I would have been glad to have had an opportunity to concentrate
in a silent environment (the entire school was silent for the same thirty
seconds, so it really was very quiet) and have a more meaningful time of prayer
than if I had to squeeze-in a quickie amid noise and haste.
I think that the thirty seconds of silence is the answer. Those who do not
wish to pray can meditate/reflect/contemplate or do whatever, but silently and
without disturbing others. Besides, I would rather have the chance to have a
personal prayer time to pray to the Lord in a specific manner than to have to
participate in a general purpose prayer that is "safe" for everyone because it
barely has any relevance at all.
If the silent time was longer, perhaps a couple of minutes, groups of like
interest could organize themselves and, after arranging it with the teacher
before hand, could briefly group together and quietly pray (or whatever)
together.
To summarize: I am for the alottment of a short period of shool time for the
purpose of having a quiet devotional/personal time to be
exercised by each student according to thier individual desire.
--------------------------------------
Dan Pellegrino
ittvax!ittral!B
(correct path is: ittvax!ittral!pellegri)mcmillan@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (03/11/84)
I agree with krista. In addition, I don't want to PAY TAXES so that we can WASTE a minute of silence in the public schools. The schools waste too much time as it is. Why pay approximately 1/360th of our taxes for a minute of prayer or silence? My children are learning their religion quite nicely at home. - Toby Robison allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison (NOTE! NOT McMillan; Robison.)
awex@wxlvax.UUCP (Alan Wexelblat) (03/13/84)
I believe that the definitive comment on 'prayer-in-public-schools' was reprinted in last Sunday's Inquirer. It is a cartoon by Bob Marlette which shows Raygun piously standing (hands folded) under a banner that says "School Prayer Amendment." The caption, though, says it best: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray publicly that they may be seen of men." -- Jesus Amen. --Alan Wexelblat (Koyaanisqatsi) ...decvax!ittvax!wxlvax!awex