lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick) (03/09/84)
TC Wheeler's article on proselytizing and Bill Gulley's followup fit in nicely with the discussion on the Voluntary Prayer Amendment. Proselytizing occurs whether we know it or not. Telling me that I'm not going to change anyone's mind is proselytizing. There's a place called Madison Avenue that proverbially specializes in changing people's minds. Those TV shows don't come on for free - there are some big bucks being wagered that your mind can be changed by a minute here, a minute there. So what does this have to do with prayer in public schools? Note: > cbscc!co "If I had a child, I would not want my child's teacher > leading a prayer for the class. THIS WOULD GIVE A TEACHER THE > OPPORTUNITY TO IMPRESS UPON THE CHILDREN HIS OR HER BELIEFS." [Emphasis added] Guess what? The teacher IS impressing his or her values on the children, like it or not. (No, not all of their values; but then, neither does leading in prayer impress all values.) Some of it is overt (like when my tennis coach was giving a rather one-sided view of politics to the team as we were returning from a match); some is hidden (like assigning a particular book to read - Paul Dubuc provided two typical examples); and sometimes the most powerful is constant exposure to a person in a position of respect (e.g., a teacher or professor), even if only an hour a day one day a week. [The selection of reading material is also a very effective way for the state to impose its religion.] > utastro!bill: "Nothing *now* prevents kids from praying > in school if they want to." I don't know if the prayer issue has gone to court, but meeting before or after school for Bible study *has* been ruled "unconstitutional." How much farther is it from listening to God to talking to Him? > utastro!bill: "As for 'voluntary', how many kids would want to stand > out in a crowd and asset their rights *not* to 'meditate'?" Do you know what the pressure is *now* on a kid who *does* want to meditate? What inmet!andrew stated works both ways: "Peer (and teacher) pressure is a powerful force upon impressionable young children..." In the rush of the day, it is very easy (even for an adult) not to do something. Given a child's lower level of self-discipline, it's worse. > Andrew also noted: "This is a prime example of the religious tyranny > that the founders of the US sought to abolish!" The Declaration of Independence and the work of the Chaplains in both Houses of Congress since Day One of this country speak otherwise. The idea of "no state religion" sounds nice, but is impossible on its very face. The value system that establishes, executes, and interprets laws is a de facto religion. (Something inside enjoyed watching the National Council of Churches squirm during U.S. vs. Bob Jones U.) You can't escape it - but you can expose it. The religion of humanism has made its advances in public schools by carefully avoiding direct exposure. The quotes are endless but let this suffice ("A Religion for a New Age," _The Humanist_, January/February 1983, p.26): "...The battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith. ... "The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new - the rotting corpse of Christianity ... and the new faith of Humanism." -- The Ice Floe of the Q-Bick {ucbvax,ihnp4}!{decwrl,amd70}!qubix!lab decwrl!qubix!lab@Berkeley.ARPA
bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (03/13/84)
> > utastro!bill: "Nothing *now* prevents kids from praying > > in school if they want to." > > I don't know if the prayer issue has gone to court, but meeting before > or after school for Bible study *has* been ruled "unconstitutional." How > much farther is it from listening to God to talking to Him? Come on, Larry, the difference is between organized religious activity in public schools (which I strongly object to) and individual activity (which has never been proscribed). Why this emphasis on getting the kids all together and having them pray in a group? Jesus advised us against public prayer, remember? Prayer is very personal and private, and the state ought to keep out of it altogether. > > utastro!bill: "As for 'voluntary', how many kids would want to stand > > out in a crowd and asset their rights *not* to 'meditate'?" > > Do you know what the pressure is *now* on a kid who *does* want to > meditate? What inmet!andrew stated works both ways: "Peer (and teacher) > pressure is a powerful force upon impressionable young children..." In > the rush of the day, it is very easy (even for an adult) not to do > something. Given a child's lower level of self-discipline, it's worse. There is a big difference between a child forgetting to pray, and a child being coerced into prayer of a kind that is offensive to him (or his family). The former is unfortunate; the latter is an outrageous infringement on religious freedom. -- Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {ihnp4,kpno,ctvax}!ut-sally!utastro!bill (uucp) utastro!bill@ut-ngp (ARPANET)