[net.religion] School Prayer -- My personal opinions

gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/07/84)

Since I started all this off, a few cursory(?) remarks.

First, I am not *objectionable* to prayer in the schools, I am just
leery of prayer being forced upon those who do not feel the need to
pray.  This can go for Christians and non-Christians alike, since there
are times when a person should pray alone, and times when they should
pray in a group.  

Next, there is the question of the type of prayer.  Will it be a period
of silent mediation, or will the teacher lead?  I feel that the period
of silent mediation would be a good idea (if it doesn't already exist --
it sure didn't about 9 years ago when I was in junior high school)
because whether or not the children are Christians perhaps a moment of
mediation would be good for everyone to start off the day with a
peaceful thought.  If the teacher leads it, problems arise.

   a.  Topic for prayer:  Is it general or directed at a certain
       something (like praying for rain or crops)?
   b.  What is the "uncomfortableness" factor of the children who don't
       feel the need to pray?
   c.  What is the "uncomfortableness" factor of the parents of the
       children who don't feel they need to pray?  (this can be quite
       serious, if the parents feel that the specific teacher is not
       qualified to lead prayer)

I would be slightly concerned if kids of mine (note: i don't have any
kids, i'm not even married) were being led in prayer -- I'd be
especially interested in what they were praying about, and to whom they
were praying.  As I understand, the prayers should be to God, but there
are a lot of different concepts of God floating around which might not
jibe with that which I intend to teach my children.

I'd like to get some more feedback about this, now that you know my real
position.  

****

Aren't you glad I'm not flaming about time anymore?

****

-- 
By the power of Grayskull!

Greg-bo, Prince of Eternia
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds

msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (03/08/84)

***
8 March 1984.

        Probably the easiest way to solve the problem would be to
eliminate public schools altogether, something I heartily
support.  If all schools are privately run, a parent does not
have to object to his/her child being 'forced' to pray in a
manner that s/he objects to.  Simply send your child to a school
that espouses your particular religious belief.  ("I don't agree
with your religious belief, because I am not religious, but I
will defend to the death your right to pursue it, as long as it
doesn't infringe upon MY rights.")

        Also, has anyone noticed that while the PARENTS are
having coronaries over getting prayer back into public schools,
most of the CHILDREN either don't care or don't want it? 

	Comments welcomed, to the net or to me directly.
-- 
		        -- cheers,
			   Mike Simpson, BBN
			   msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA)
			   {decvax,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet)
			   617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)

gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/09/84)

>        Probably the easiest way to solve the problem would be to
>eliminate public schools altogether, something I heartily
>support.  If all schools are privately run, a parent does not
>have to object to his/her child being 'forced' to pray in a
>manner that s/he objects to.  Simply send your child to a school
>that espouses your particular religious belief.  ("I don't agree
>with your religious belief, because I am not religious, but I
>will defend to the death your right to pursue it, as long as it
>doesn't infringe upon MY rights.")

You cannot be serious about this.  Most U.S. families cannot afford to
send their youngsters to private elementary and/or high school.

>        Also, has anyone noticed that while the PARENTS are
>having coronaries over getting prayer back into public schools,
>most of the CHILDREN either don't care or don't want it? 

The children to whom this law will affect the most are too young to
understand the implications of it.

Cast your votes for silent meditation.
-- 
By the power of Grayskull!

Greg-bo, Prince of Eternia
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds

stanwyck@ihuxr.UUCP (Don Stanwyck) (03/09/84)

(*  This is admittedly more argumentative than the way I feel, I just 
    feel a need to present this issue.........			     *)


> From: riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle)
> 
> I am a second-generation atheist.  My fiancee was raised as a Hindu.
> Can any supporter of a school prayer amendment explain to me how the
> prayer resulting from the proposed amendment could possibly avoid
> offending  o u r  religious sensibilities or those of our children?  If
> you agree that we would find the prayers objectionable, then can you
> explain to me why our right to freedom from religious interference by
> the state is somehow not worthy of defending simply because we do not
> conform to the religious beliefs of the majority?

While I am not sure I support the school prayer admendment (I, as a
practicing Christian, am not sure I could live with whatever non-sectarian
prayer was produced), I would like to ask Prentiss the following:

Is it possible that your religious belief, a belief in "non-God", and your
expectation that the state promote your religion, might be insensitive to
my religion, and in fact discriminatory against it?  I haven't really
thought about this, but the idea struck me and I couldn't argue myself out
of asking.........

(QUICK, BRING THE ASBESTOS!!!!!!!!!!!)

-- 
 ________
 (      )					Don Stanwyck
@( o  o )@					312-979-3062
 (  ||  )					Cornet-367-3062
 ( \__/ )					ihnp4!ihuxr!stanwyck
 (______)					Bell Labs @ Naperville, IL

bch@unc.UUCP (Byron Howes ) (03/11/84)

I don't see how the lack of organized school prayer can be interpreted as
the forcing of atheistic beliefs on anyone.  An organized atheistic move-
ment would seem to me to require an explicit statement denying the existence
of the Deity to be read aloud or in unison.  If such were to be suggested
I would be as opposed to it as I am to organized prayer in the classroom.  

The question asked by Don Stanwyck does point up a rather shady debating
tactic often used by the Christian Right in various arguments.  Somehow 
they assert every action to be a religious expression, if not christian
then atheist or (*gasp*) humanist.  I wonder what they make of my Friday
pilgrimages to my favorite brauhaus....
-- 

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

					   Byron Howes
					UNC - Chapel Hill
				  ({decvax,akgua}!mcnc!unc!bch)

mcmillan@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (03/11/84)

In reply to Prentiss Riddle, who is concerned about what the children of an
atheist and a Hindi would do during a Christian school prayer...

Why don't they just refuse to participate, thus setting themselves awkwardly
apart from the rest of the class.  Don't you want them to learn to be
ostracized?  What is school for, anyway?

My Grandmother once went to school to do battle for her (Jewish) children,
whose classes were singing some of the more religious Christmas carols.
The principal advised her that of course, her children need not sing; they
could stand apart and not participate.  May grandmother then asked, "And
what should they do while they are not participating?  Stand there and feel
superior?"  I think tht the principal in the process of biting back a reply
that of course they should not feel SUPERIOR, understood her point.

Prayer in schools would be divisive.  Silence in schools is a waste of
money.
					- Toby Robison
					allegra!eosp1!robison
					decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison
					princeton!eosp1!robison
					(NOTE! NOT McMillan; Robison.)

ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (03/11/84)

--
>> Is it possible that your religious belief, a belief in "non-God", and your
>> expectation that the state promote your religion, might be insensitive to
>> my religion, and in fact discriminatory against it?  I haven't really
>> thought about this, but the idea struck me and I couldn't argue myself out
>> of asking.........

That's silly.  No one is suggesting (like they did in Albania) making
atheism the state religion.  Keeping prayer out of public schools does
not mean sanctioning non-belief in god.   If you don't see that, you've
missed the whole point.  The government should have NO position, none,
on religious practice.  That's not a "yes" vote; it's not a "no" vote;
it's "I abstain".  Something I WON'T DO in November.

If you find me insensitive and discriminatory because I'd rather not
be forced by the government to kneel before your religious icons,
what can I say?  Pray harder, I guess.  But do it in private.
-- 
                    *** ***
JE MAINTIENDRAI   ***** *****
                 ****** ******    11 Mar 84 [21 Ventose An CXCII]
ken perlow       *****   *****
(312)979-7261     ** ** ** **
..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken   *** ***

seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) (03/12/84)

> You cannot be serious about this.  Most U.S. families cannot afford to
> send their youngsters to private elementary and/or high school.

Not after paying all the taxes to support public schools, no.
Public schools _u_s_e_d to be fine institutions of learning.
Have you seen one lately? Yuck!  Fix them, or junk them.

-- 
		_____
	       /_____\	    Have you hugged your beagle today?
	      /_______\			Snoopy
		|___|	
	    ____|___|_____	    ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert

msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (03/12/84)

***
12 March 1984.

	Recently, I suggested eliminating public schools as a
means of handling the 'school prayer' dispute.  Greg Skinner
(decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds) took issue with me, saying

	>> You cannot be serious about this.  Most US families
	>>      cannot afford to send their youngsters to private
	>>      elementary and/or high school.

	However, if public schools are eliminated, then the
resultant tax drain on the parents will be lessened, easing the
crunch.  (I come from a lower-middle class background, and went
to private schools for all but three years of my education, as
did my brothers and sisters.)

	One additional problem this would handle is the following.
We have a national ruckus being raised over the quality of public
schools.  Do we need more money?  More discipline?  Better
teachers? (Etc.)  If schools were all privately run, they would
be forced to become more competitive (and hence do a better job
of educating children) or go out of business.  

	Divergent opinions welcomed.
-- 
		        -- cheers,
			   Mike Simpson, BBN
			   msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA)
			   {decvax,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet)
			   617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)

riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (03/13/84)

Well, Don, I really don't think you need to get out your asbestos plating,
but here goes:

>> >> I am a second-generation atheist.  My fiancee was raised as a Hindu.
>> >> Can any supporter of a school prayer amendment explain to me how the
>> >> prayer resulting from the proposed amendment could possibly avoid
>> >> offending  o u r  religious sensibilities or those of our children?  If
>> >> you agree that we would find the prayers objectionable, then can you
>> >> explain to me why our right to freedom from religious interference by
>> >> the state is somehow not worthy of defending simply because we do not
>> >> conform to the religious beliefs of the majority?
>> >> 				Prentiss Riddle	   ut-sally!riddle
>> 
>> Is it possible that your religious belief, a belief in "non-God", and your
>> expectation that the state promote your religion, might be insensitive to
>> my religion, and in fact discriminatory against it?  I haven't really
>> thought about this, but the idea struck me and I couldn't argue myself out
>> of asking.........
>>  			Don Stanwyck	 ihnp4!ihuxr!stanwyck

So where did I say that I expect the state to promote my religious beliefs? 
For the state to refrain from practices which assert the existence of God does
not mean that the state is engaging in practices which assert the opposite. 
I would consider organized atheistic observances just as inappropriate for
the classroom as the organized Christian ones now so hotly promoted by the
supporters of the School Prayer Amendment.

(And, by the way, I don't believe for a moment that the principal supporters
of such an amendment would be willing to settle for non-sectarian prayers.
What they would really like to see is for their own brand of fundamentalist
christianity to become the state religion, and they will push things just as
far in that direction as they possibly can.  Why else do they refuse to settle
for silent prayer, something which would offend only people on the margins
like me?  Instead they are working for an amendment which is guaranteed, in
practice if not in theory, to create religious strife in every school district
in America.  It won't be just the children of atheists and Hindus who will be
put on the spot: it will be the children of Jews, of Catholics, and of
mainstream Protestants whose views happen not to conform with those of the
hardest-hitting Bible-pounders in their communities.)

--- Prentiss Riddle ("Aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada.")
--- {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddle

mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (03/15/84)

==================
 ... If schools were all privately run, they would
be forced to become more competitive (and hence do a better job
of educating children) or go out of business.  

==================
"Better?" Better make that "cheaper".
-- 

Martin Taylor
{allegra,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt

riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (03/15/84)

A  v e r y  personal view:

I am a second-generation atheist.  My fiancee was raised as a Hindu.

Can any supporter of a school prayer amendment explain to me how the
prayer resulting from the proposed amendment could possibly avoid
offending  o u r  religious sensibilities or those of our children?  If
you agree that we would find the prayers objectionable, then can you
explain to me why our right to freedom from religious interference by
the state is somehow not worthy of defending simply because we do not
conform to the religious beliefs of the majority?

It seems to me that the proponents of a school prayer amendment have
amply demonstrated either their profound ignorance of the concept of
religious freedom, their profound contempt for it, or both.

--- Prentiss Riddle ("Aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada.")
--- {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddle