gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/07/84)
Since I started all this off, a few cursory(?) remarks. First, I am not *objectionable* to prayer in the schools, I am just leery of prayer being forced upon those who do not feel the need to pray. This can go for Christians and non-Christians alike, since there are times when a person should pray alone, and times when they should pray in a group. Next, there is the question of the type of prayer. Will it be a period of silent mediation, or will the teacher lead? I feel that the period of silent mediation would be a good idea (if it doesn't already exist -- it sure didn't about 9 years ago when I was in junior high school) because whether or not the children are Christians perhaps a moment of mediation would be good for everyone to start off the day with a peaceful thought. If the teacher leads it, problems arise. a. Topic for prayer: Is it general or directed at a certain something (like praying for rain or crops)? b. What is the "uncomfortableness" factor of the children who don't feel the need to pray? c. What is the "uncomfortableness" factor of the parents of the children who don't feel they need to pray? (this can be quite serious, if the parents feel that the specific teacher is not qualified to lead prayer) I would be slightly concerned if kids of mine (note: i don't have any kids, i'm not even married) were being led in prayer -- I'd be especially interested in what they were praying about, and to whom they were praying. As I understand, the prayers should be to God, but there are a lot of different concepts of God floating around which might not jibe with that which I intend to teach my children. I'd like to get some more feedback about this, now that you know my real position. **** Aren't you glad I'm not flaming about time anymore? **** -- By the power of Grayskull! Greg-bo, Prince of Eternia {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (03/08/84)
*** 8 March 1984. Probably the easiest way to solve the problem would be to eliminate public schools altogether, something I heartily support. If all schools are privately run, a parent does not have to object to his/her child being 'forced' to pray in a manner that s/he objects to. Simply send your child to a school that espouses your particular religious belief. ("I don't agree with your religious belief, because I am not religious, but I will defend to the death your right to pursue it, as long as it doesn't infringe upon MY rights.") Also, has anyone noticed that while the PARENTS are having coronaries over getting prayer back into public schools, most of the CHILDREN either don't care or don't want it? Comments welcomed, to the net or to me directly. -- -- cheers, Mike Simpson, BBN msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA) {decvax,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet) 617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)
gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/09/84)
> Probably the easiest way to solve the problem would be to >eliminate public schools altogether, something I heartily >support. If all schools are privately run, a parent does not >have to object to his/her child being 'forced' to pray in a >manner that s/he objects to. Simply send your child to a school >that espouses your particular religious belief. ("I don't agree >with your religious belief, because I am not religious, but I >will defend to the death your right to pursue it, as long as it >doesn't infringe upon MY rights.") You cannot be serious about this. Most U.S. families cannot afford to send their youngsters to private elementary and/or high school. > Also, has anyone noticed that while the PARENTS are >having coronaries over getting prayer back into public schools, >most of the CHILDREN either don't care or don't want it? The children to whom this law will affect the most are too young to understand the implications of it. Cast your votes for silent meditation. -- By the power of Grayskull! Greg-bo, Prince of Eternia {decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gds
stanwyck@ihuxr.UUCP (Don Stanwyck) (03/09/84)
(* This is admittedly more argumentative than the way I feel, I just feel a need to present this issue......... *) > From: riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) > > I am a second-generation atheist. My fiancee was raised as a Hindu. > Can any supporter of a school prayer amendment explain to me how the > prayer resulting from the proposed amendment could possibly avoid > offending o u r religious sensibilities or those of our children? If > you agree that we would find the prayers objectionable, then can you > explain to me why our right to freedom from religious interference by > the state is somehow not worthy of defending simply because we do not > conform to the religious beliefs of the majority? While I am not sure I support the school prayer admendment (I, as a practicing Christian, am not sure I could live with whatever non-sectarian prayer was produced), I would like to ask Prentiss the following: Is it possible that your religious belief, a belief in "non-God", and your expectation that the state promote your religion, might be insensitive to my religion, and in fact discriminatory against it? I haven't really thought about this, but the idea struck me and I couldn't argue myself out of asking......... (QUICK, BRING THE ASBESTOS!!!!!!!!!!!) -- ________ ( ) Don Stanwyck @( o o )@ 312-979-3062 ( || ) Cornet-367-3062 ( \__/ ) ihnp4!ihuxr!stanwyck (______) Bell Labs @ Naperville, IL
bch@unc.UUCP (Byron Howes ) (03/11/84)
I don't see how the lack of organized school prayer can be interpreted as the forcing of atheistic beliefs on anyone. An organized atheistic move- ment would seem to me to require an explicit statement denying the existence of the Deity to be read aloud or in unison. If such were to be suggested I would be as opposed to it as I am to organized prayer in the classroom. The question asked by Don Stanwyck does point up a rather shady debating tactic often used by the Christian Right in various arguments. Somehow they assert every action to be a religious expression, if not christian then atheist or (*gasp*) humanist. I wonder what they make of my Friday pilgrimages to my favorite brauhaus.... -- "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" Byron Howes UNC - Chapel Hill ({decvax,akgua}!mcnc!unc!bch)
mcmillan@eosp1.UUCP (Tobias D. Robison) (03/11/84)
In reply to Prentiss Riddle, who is concerned about what the children of an atheist and a Hindi would do during a Christian school prayer... Why don't they just refuse to participate, thus setting themselves awkwardly apart from the rest of the class. Don't you want them to learn to be ostracized? What is school for, anyway? My Grandmother once went to school to do battle for her (Jewish) children, whose classes were singing some of the more religious Christmas carols. The principal advised her that of course, her children need not sing; they could stand apart and not participate. May grandmother then asked, "And what should they do while they are not participating? Stand there and feel superior?" I think tht the principal in the process of biting back a reply that of course they should not feel SUPERIOR, understood her point. Prayer in schools would be divisive. Silence in schools is a waste of money. - Toby Robison allegra!eosp1!robison decvax!ittvax!eosp1!robison princeton!eosp1!robison (NOTE! NOT McMillan; Robison.)
ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (03/11/84)
-- >> Is it possible that your religious belief, a belief in "non-God", and your >> expectation that the state promote your religion, might be insensitive to >> my religion, and in fact discriminatory against it? I haven't really >> thought about this, but the idea struck me and I couldn't argue myself out >> of asking......... That's silly. No one is suggesting (like they did in Albania) making atheism the state religion. Keeping prayer out of public schools does not mean sanctioning non-belief in god. If you don't see that, you've missed the whole point. The government should have NO position, none, on religious practice. That's not a "yes" vote; it's not a "no" vote; it's "I abstain". Something I WON'T DO in November. If you find me insensitive and discriminatory because I'd rather not be forced by the government to kneel before your religious icons, what can I say? Pray harder, I guess. But do it in private. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 11 Mar 84 [21 Ventose An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7261 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***
seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) (03/12/84)
> You cannot be serious about this. Most U.S. families cannot afford to > send their youngsters to private elementary and/or high school. Not after paying all the taxes to support public schools, no. Public schools _u_s_e_d to be fine institutions of learning. Have you seen one lately? Yuck! Fix them, or junk them. -- _____ /_____\ Have you hugged your beagle today? /_______\ Snoopy |___| ____|___|_____ ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert
msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (03/12/84)
*** 12 March 1984. Recently, I suggested eliminating public schools as a means of handling the 'school prayer' dispute. Greg Skinner (decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!gds) took issue with me, saying >> You cannot be serious about this. Most US families >> cannot afford to send their youngsters to private >> elementary and/or high school. However, if public schools are eliminated, then the resultant tax drain on the parents will be lessened, easing the crunch. (I come from a lower-middle class background, and went to private schools for all but three years of my education, as did my brothers and sisters.) One additional problem this would handle is the following. We have a national ruckus being raised over the quality of public schools. Do we need more money? More discipline? Better teachers? (Etc.) If schools were all privately run, they would be forced to become more competitive (and hence do a better job of educating children) or go out of business. Divergent opinions welcomed. -- -- cheers, Mike Simpson, BBN msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA) {decvax,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet) 617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)
riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (03/13/84)
Well, Don, I really don't think you need to get out your asbestos plating, but here goes: >> >> I am a second-generation atheist. My fiancee was raised as a Hindu. >> >> Can any supporter of a school prayer amendment explain to me how the >> >> prayer resulting from the proposed amendment could possibly avoid >> >> offending o u r religious sensibilities or those of our children? If >> >> you agree that we would find the prayers objectionable, then can you >> >> explain to me why our right to freedom from religious interference by >> >> the state is somehow not worthy of defending simply because we do not >> >> conform to the religious beliefs of the majority? >> >> Prentiss Riddle ut-sally!riddle >> >> Is it possible that your religious belief, a belief in "non-God", and your >> expectation that the state promote your religion, might be insensitive to >> my religion, and in fact discriminatory against it? I haven't really >> thought about this, but the idea struck me and I couldn't argue myself out >> of asking......... >> Don Stanwyck ihnp4!ihuxr!stanwyck So where did I say that I expect the state to promote my religious beliefs? For the state to refrain from practices which assert the existence of God does not mean that the state is engaging in practices which assert the opposite. I would consider organized atheistic observances just as inappropriate for the classroom as the organized Christian ones now so hotly promoted by the supporters of the School Prayer Amendment. (And, by the way, I don't believe for a moment that the principal supporters of such an amendment would be willing to settle for non-sectarian prayers. What they would really like to see is for their own brand of fundamentalist christianity to become the state religion, and they will push things just as far in that direction as they possibly can. Why else do they refuse to settle for silent prayer, something which would offend only people on the margins like me? Instead they are working for an amendment which is guaranteed, in practice if not in theory, to create religious strife in every school district in America. It won't be just the children of atheists and Hindus who will be put on the spot: it will be the children of Jews, of Catholics, and of mainstream Protestants whose views happen not to conform with those of the hardest-hitting Bible-pounders in their communities.) --- Prentiss Riddle ("Aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada.") --- {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddle
mmt@dciem.UUCP (Martin Taylor) (03/15/84)
================== ... If schools were all privately run, they would be forced to become more competitive (and hence do a better job of educating children) or go out of business. ================== "Better?" Better make that "cheaper". -- Martin Taylor {allegra,linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,floyd,ubc-vision}!utzoo!dciem!mmt
riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (03/15/84)
A v e r y personal view: I am a second-generation atheist. My fiancee was raised as a Hindu. Can any supporter of a school prayer amendment explain to me how the prayer resulting from the proposed amendment could possibly avoid offending o u r religious sensibilities or those of our children? If you agree that we would find the prayers objectionable, then can you explain to me why our right to freedom from religious interference by the state is somehow not worthy of defending simply because we do not conform to the religious beliefs of the majority? It seems to me that the proponents of a school prayer amendment have amply demonstrated either their profound ignorance of the concept of religious freedom, their profound contempt for it, or both. --- Prentiss Riddle ("Aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada.") --- {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddle