riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) (03/19/84)
Here's my opinion, for what it's worth: although both Christmas and
Thanksgiving originated as religious holidays and still hold deeply-
felt religious meaning for many people, they are, in practice, as much
secular holidays and religious ones. I'm a second-generation atheist
(remember me?) and my family always celebrated both; so did most of my
Jewish friends when I was in elementary school; so do many members of
the East Indian community in this country, of which my fiancee is a
part (or at least Christmas -- I'm not sure whether very many Indians
go for turkey with stuffing!).
Big state-sponsored celebrations involving the Christian side of these
holidays, particularly in the public schools, make me somewhat
uncomfortable, as I'm sure they make many Jews and members of other
religious minorities uncomfortable. Still, I'm not ready to side with
Madeline Murray O'Hare and declare that the sky is falling because the
courts allow cities to put up creches at Christmas.
Why do I get very upset about school prayer but not about nativity
pageants? I'm not sure. Maybe it's realism, maybe it's inconsistency,
or maybe it's just that I'm becoming enough of a traditionalist that I
enjoy the celebration of Christmas even if I can't agree with the
religious beliefs associated with it.
(Now I just wish that a few more school boards and city councils would
celebrate Hanukkah and Divali!)
--- Prentiss Riddle ("Aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada.")
--- {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!riddlesmb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (03/22/84)
From: riddle@ut-sally.UUCP (Prentiss Riddle) Newsgroups: net.religion, net.politics Subject: Re: church and state and holidays Message-ID: <1500@ut-sally.UUCP> Date: Mon, 19-Mar-84 11:06:02 EST Here's my opinion, for what it's worth: although both Christmas and Thanksgiving originated as religious holidays and still hold deeply- felt religious meaning for many people, they are, in practice, as much secular holidays and religious ones. I'm a second-generation atheist (remember me?) and my family always celebrated both; so did most of my Jewish friends when I was in elementary school... I do not know of any practicing Jews who celebrate Christmas. Granted, I rarely go to work on December 25, but there's usually little to do. (Though it's a *great* day to get machine time....) I'll take any days off they choose to give me. Thanksgiving strikes me as a different situation entirely. At most it's a theistic holiday -- give thanks to the deity of your choice. That it was instituted by a group of Christians doesn't affect that. Christmas, though, is the celebration of the birth of one group's savior -- and a nativity scene is the symbol of exactly that aspect. *That's* why I object to creches on public property -- because there's no meaning other than religious. The problem, I think, is that America is culturally Christian. I'm not saying that this is bad, and I'm certainly not saying that one should oppose this -- I don't think that that's even possible. But there's often a fine line between the religious aspects of a holiday -- i.e., nativity scenes -- and the secularized aspects, such as lights and reindeer. (Probably the line is constantly moving.) I won't display symbols of a Christian holiday (there are no Christmas lights on my house, nor any Santas, etc.), but their presence in a state-supported setting is much less offensive to me. I don't think most Christian or Chistian-descended Americans realize how hard it can be for a Jew to retain his or her identity. A few years ago, I was giving a friend a ride to a party. We weren't certain exactly which house we were heading to, and my friend pointed to one that was obviously hosting *some* party. I explained that that couldn't be the house we were looking for, since it was festooned with Christmas lights, and Larry, being Jewish, wouldn't do that. She absolutely did not understand why it should matter. (Btw -- that friend is out there in USENET land right now, though I don't know if she reads this group....) If you don't understand either, you probably don't understand why a municipal creche is offensive. --Steve Bellovin