tynor@uiucuxc.UUCP (03/19/84)
#N:uiucuxc:34800002:000:324
uiucuxc!tynor Mar 18 13:09:00 1984
Is Atheism a religion? The dictionary defines a religion as somehow
worshiping God. It seems to me that an atheist takes a similar leap
of faith when he claims that there is no God.
Thoughts? Comments?
Steve Tynor
ihnp4!uiucdcs!uiucuxc!tynor
University of Illinois Champaign-Urbanarlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (03/19/84)
Which is the leap of faith? Believing in that which has been demonstrably proven or believing that you have knowledge of things that exist beyond that which is understood. To say "Ahh, but you don't know if nothing exists beyond that which we understand, therefore it is YOU who is making the leap of faith" has got to be one of the most vacuous, emptyheaded statements I've ever seen (and I've seen a few--having made some of them myself). Let's put the burden of proof where it rightly belongs. Scientific thought has a model of the physical world. Others claim the truthfulness of another model. Which one would a rational mind choose? The one with the greatest evidence, I would think. To misquote a famous politician and an infamous TV commercial (or is it the other way around?): Where's the deity?? -- Never ASSUME, because when you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME... Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr
isbell@marvin.DEC (Chris Isbell ) (03/21/84)
[Mystics line] > >Is Atheism a religion? The dictionary defines a religion as somehow >worshipping God. It seems to me that an atheist takes a similar leap >of faith when he claims that there is no God. > >Steve Tynor What about Buddhism? There is no God in Buddhism. (There is also no non-God either.) It would be very difficult to argue that it is not a religion. Chris Isbell. (...decvax!decwrl!rhea!marvin!isbell)
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (03/27/84)
> = Rich Rosen > Which is the leap of faith? Believing in that which has been demonstrably > proven or believing that you have knowledge of things that exist beyond > that which is understood. To say "Ahh, but you don't know if nothing > exists beyond that which we understand, therefore it is YOU who is making > the leap of faith" has got to be one of the most vacuous, emptyheaded > statements I've ever seen (and I've seen a few--having made some of them > myself). Let's put the burden of proof where it rightly belongs. The Bible itself says, "Now faith is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see." [emphasis mine] There is a form of knowledge deeper than the mere rational knowledge: "This is how we know that he [Christ] lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us." This is not something that can be appreciated with the rational mind alone; the rational mind is INSUFFICIENT to fully comprehend the love of God, and thus insufficient to live a full, complete, joyous life. Remember, the first verse I quoted above begins a chapter alluding to numerous Old Testament examples where faith PAID OFF, and BENEFITED at least the person exercising it; frequently all Israel prospered as a result of faith. The chapter is Hebrews 11. Also, Paul in his letter to the Romans quoted the prophet Habakkuk, who wrote, "The righteous shall live by faith"; which, when combined with Jesus's words, "I am come that [people] might have life, and might have it more abundantly", really makes it appear that faith in God will improve your life, as it has mine. You are indeed making a leap of faith, or at least an assumption, when you believe that nothing exists that cannot be demonstrated with physical-science techniques. Just because you can't weigh or measure God, you assume He isn't there. Sorry, but you are violating your own precept, "Never ASSUME...." Let me quote, without comment, some more Scripture for you to think about: "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20) As to the "burden of proof": Only you can prove the existence of God for yourself. "Try it -- you'll like it"; or, "Taste and see that the Lord is good." Christians can cite historical evidence, archaeological evidence, psychological evidence (e.g. my long climb away from irrationality), empirical evidence (e.g. the experience of a friend of mine who smoked before he became a Christian, and who was miraculously freed of the craving for tobacco -- in an instant -- when he prayed for that after becoming a Christian; not to mention many who have been freed of addiction to even more dangerous drugs after coming to Christ) -- we can show you all this, which makes the existence of a loving God overwhelmingly probable, until we're blue in the face; but if you refuse to consider all this, there's not a lot we can do for you. All we ask is that you honestly give Christ a fair trial -- honestly ask Him to come into your life and help you to become like Him. He will; sometimes the changes are quick and dramatic, sometimes slower (but at least in my case, equally dramatic). That's how to receive proof of God's existence. Finally, let me close by saying that most of your articles (including the one I am responding to here) have a definite overtone of anger--i.e. you do not appear to be the bastion of pure rationality you would like to believe. In fact, my guess would be that you carry around a lot of anger all the time (if I'm wrong, sorry; it was a guess, after all). Often chronic anger is a result of deep hurt. (I know; I've experienced deep hurt and been very chronically angry in my life, and I've been able to shed a lot of that anger with God's help.) I actually have compassion for you; is there anything I can do to bring you healing (besides pray for you)? Maybe we've been through some of the same hurts, and I can show you how God (sometimes working through His people) has helped me out of them. -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq Have you hugged your junk mail today?