rcj1@ihuxi.UUCP (06/28/83)
I don't mean to re-kindle old fires but I thought this might be interesting to someone out there... The Reagan administration Monday formally endorsed a constitutional amendment restoring voluntary prayer to the classroom and said it "is not enough" to settle for merely allowing silent classroom prayer and voluntary religiious meetings. The administrations proposal would read: Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to prohibit individual of group prayer in public schools or other public institutions. No person shall be required by the United States or by any state to participate in prayer." The alternative supported by a few Senators and others would allow silent prayer and meditation during class time and the "equal access" right of students to meet voluntarily for Bible study or prayer at school during non-class hours.. Interesting enough, the following opposed the proposal: Rev. Dean M. Kelly of the National Council of Churches of Christ, Baptist Joint Committee on Public affairs, Washington office of the Episcopal Church, B'nai B'rith, National Council of Jewish Women, General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists, American Jewish Committee, and Union of American Hebrew Congregations. P.S. I might add that the Rev. Dean M. Kelly was quoted as saying: "Children can now engage in silent prayer or meditation in public schools or anywhere else. They do not need the permission of the U.S. Supreme Court, the president, the Congress or all the state legislatures in the land." Ray, ihuxi!rcj1
paull@hplabs.UUCP (RP ) (03/08/84)
.
If all the people who profess to be religious would get there kids
up 1 minute earlier in the morning and do there praying at home
(where it belongs) there would be no conflict in the schools.
It seems to me that its the parents responsibility to teach
religion to their children. (if they choose to do so)
I Don't think its the governments place to advocate or discourage
religious beliefs. The vote buyers should stay out of it.
Rob Paull, Palo Alto, CA.harold@hp-pcd.UUCP (03/11/84)
<My sacrifice for the day...> First, I AGREE that prayer in public schools IS NOT a good thing. I have my own religious beliefs and DO NOT want my children to be desriminated FOR or AGAINST by the "prayer-of- the-day". Religion is a PRIVATE matter and has no place in the public domain of school. I also recognize that many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. Those atrocities should be talked about and presented for what they were- atrocities. However, (you knew that was coming, right?) <Mild Flame On> "teaching the children that religion is not necessary" IS NOT the answer!!! IF we were to do that, we would be "reverse discriminating" AGAINST religion. Just because you DON'T "believe" DOES NOT give you the right to teach MY children that religion is not "necessary"- implying that you are weak if you believe in a religion. I won't "force religion down your throat" in a public situation like school, but don't you EVER attempt to "force atheism" down MY family's throat, either. <Flame Off> Harold Noyes !hplabs!hp-pcd!harold
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (03/12/84)
The root issue for me in this whole debate
is that "religious speech" has been relegated
to a second-class status in public institutions
by the Supreme Court (in effect if not intended).
How come students can have extra-curricular on-
campus activities like a Stamp Club, History Club,
TM Sessions, Witchcraft Club, etc.,etc., ....
but a Bible Club brings the ACLU out of the woodwork?
Talking about Jesus, Buddha, Ubizmo, or Odin on your
own time on school grounds should be allowed. Whatever
happened to the "free market place of ideas"?
Bob Brown {...pur-ee!inuxc!ihnp4!clyde!akgua!rjb}
AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga
(404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784gds@mit-eddie.UUCP (Greg Skinner) (03/13/84)
My high school (Stuyvesant in NYC) had a Bible Club. I don't remember
any fuss raised over it. Of course, I can only speak for myself ...
--
By the power of Grayskull!
Greg-bo, Prince of Eternia
{decvax!genrad, eagle!mit-vax, ihnp4}!mit-eddie!gdsmp@ganehd.UUCP (Scott Barman) (03/19/84)
My brother, who is 16 and lives in Charlotte, NC (Where churches are on almost every corner), said that he and the other Jewish guys in his school plans to hold morning services the day they start praying in school. I can not see how they (governments) can come up with any arguments on the method of prayer without violating the thin line between church and state. Non-denominational prayers will have to written by someone and comissioned by government. Besides, students pray all the time; I know, personally, I prayed like mad when I took my last final exam at the University of Georgia! (P.S. I passed!!!!!!!) Scott Barman ..!akgua!ganehd!mp
bwm@ccieng2.UUCP ( Brad Miller) (03/22/84)
Seems to me, prayer in schools is awful close to indoctrination. I thought schools were meant to TEACH. If so, how about teaching about all the people who have been killed in the name of Allah, Christ, God, whatever. Seems to me most problems in the Middle East come down to religion. Rather than perpetuating the problem, we should be educating the children to understand why religion isn't necessary; you can take responsibility for your own actions, and not foist them off on the will of some 'superior' being. Religion has been used FOR TOO LONG as a tool to control the ignorant. -- ...[rlgvax, ritcv]!ccieng5!ccieng2!bwm
jrt@hou5g.UUCP (03/23/84)
[Where's the BEEF ??? ... I'm Hungry! ... munch, munch] <- line eater > From: bwm@ccieng2.UUCP ( Brad Miller) > Seems to me, prayer in schools is awful close to indoctrination. I > thought schools were meant to TEACH. If so, how about teaching about all > the people who have been killed in the name of Allah, Christ, God, whatever. I believe that is already being done in most history classes, however most religions not only don't espouse killing/violence/control. The OPPOSITE is most often the case...i.e. "vengence is MINE sayeth the Lord", "turn your other cheek", "forgive us as we forgive others"..etc,etc. > Seems to me most problems in the Middle East come down to religion. Rather > than perpetuating the problem, we should be educating the children to > understand why religion isn't necessary; you can take responsibility for > your own actions, and not foist them off on the will of some 'superior' > being. Religion has been used FOR TOO LONG as a tool to control the ignorant. The conflicts between what you are talking about and what religions stand for is what a few individuals have done to twist and distort the teachings of religions for their own personal beliefs and purposes. Religions have a fantastic potential for good. Along with that they also have a very big potential for ABUSE. Instead of trying to pretend that religious beliefs don't or shouldn't exist, why not try to EDUCATE people on what the various religions are REALLY trying to say, so that in later life, individuals can make intelligent, informed decisions and can differentiate between what the religion says and some abuser is trying to get you to believe. (** FRODO **) alias hou5g!jrt p.s. I wonder how many of you that are screaming about not allowing people to pray in schools or public places, make even a hint of displeasure known at someone smoking in a non-smoking area where thier smoke has been proven to be harmful to people around them ...... never mind, that's another flame .....
yudelson@aecom.UUCP (Larry Yudelson) (03/23/84)
So the public schools should teach that religion is the root of all evil, that religion is all a gigantic lie, etc. etc. etc.??? Is this any better than what Falwell is trying to slam down our throats? I think that if you look at recent history, you'll see that the effects of small groups feuding against each other is nowhere as dangerous as One Unified Nation with whatever ideology its leader chooses. I have my doubts about the long-term effects of a society where children can play chess but can't pray at school; I also am terrified of a society where everyone must say the same prayer, be it Billy Graham's or Bertrand Russell's. Perhaps the solution is what I followed: private schools. I was able to play chess and pray before school; both my chess game and religious life are the better for it. Perhaps a free-market approach to education would be a lot better approach than a big-brother approach to both education or religion. I have more to say on the subject, but I might as well wait for the flames to roll in, to mismangle a metaphor "Beware the Frumiest Bandersnatch" Larry Yudelson
debray@sbcs.UUCP (Saumya Debray) (03/24/84)
aecom!yudelson (from a pro-school-prayer viewpoint): > So the public schools should teach that religion is the > root of all evil, that religion is all a gigantic lie, etc. > etc. etc.??? No. It's not for the schools to take a position on religion. (They seem to have a hard enough time teaching such well-understood subjects as Math and English! :-) ) Religion is the business of the church and the individual families. Surely parents who feel so strongly about their kids praying can have them spare a minute for prayer at home before rushing off to school? Religion seems to be one of the most divisive forces at work in society (witness Lebanon, North Ireland), and schools would probably be better off not coming down on either side of the fence. Let them teach the youngsters how to THINK, and have them then weigh the evidence and make up their minds for themselves. -- Saumya Debray, SUNY at Stony Brook uucp: {cbosgd, decvax, ihnp4, mcvax, cmcl2}!philabs \ {amd70, akgua, decwrl, utzoo}!allegra > !sbcs!debray {teklabs, hp-pcd, metheus}!ogcvax / CSNet: debray@suny-sbcs@CSNet-Relay
msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (03/26/84)
*** 26 March 1984. >> Brad Miller (ccieng2!bwm): >> "Religion has been used FAR TOO LONG as a tool to control >> the ignorant." But Brad, hasn't it been stated time and again that religion is the 'opiate of the masses'? Public schools today are being battered by right-wing fundamentalists' desires to have THEIR particular values taught to the exclusion of others'. This is not right, as freedom of speech and thought are in danger of being stifled. Has anyone seriously thought about the parallels between the Moral Majority's attempt to coerce America's children via 'prayer in schools' (which is all a political crock, anyway) and Lenin's statement "Give me the children for four years (long enough to get my particular beliefs in), and I will have them for life." ? Grab Richard Mitchell's book "The Graves of Academe" if you are at all interested. Comments welcomed, to the net or to me directly. -- -- cheers, Mike Simpson, BBN msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA) {decvax,ima,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet) 617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)
msimpson@bbncca.ARPA (Mike Simpson) (03/26/84)
***
26 March 84
From: Larry Yudelson (aecom!yudelson)
"So, public schools should teach that religion is the root
of all evil, that religion is a gigantic lie, etc? ... "
The first paragraph sounds more like a momentary burst of
paranoia. I don't think that public schools should be teaching
religion at all. If they MUST, have them teach ABOUT many
different kinds , without proffering one as "the RIGHT one", and
let the kids make up their own minds.
"I have my doubts about the long-term effects of a
society where children can play chess but can't pray at school; I
am also terrified of a society where everyone must say the same
prayer, be it Billy Graham's or Bertrand Russell's."
I don't claim to follow the second paragraph very well --
although the thought of everyone saying the same prayer scares
me, I don't see where praying in schools is going to be the
panacea that fundamentalists claim it to be. Besides, there will
be prayer in schools for as long as you have junior high algebra
[ :-) ].
"Perhaps a free-market approach to education would be a
lot better approach than a big-brother approach to both education
or religion."
I agree with the last statement totally. Given a
free-market approach, each parent can customize his/her child's
education to preference.
Comments welcomed, to the net or to me directly.
--
-- cheers,
Mike Simpson, BBN
msimpson@bbn-unix (ARPA)
{decvax,ima,linus,wjh12}!bbncca!msimpson (Usenet)
617-497-2819 (Ma Bell)chavez@harvard.UUCP (R. Martin Chavez) (04/04/84)
My high school, the Albuquerque Academy, adopted this non-sectarian blessing: "Bless this food to our use and thus to thy service." It's guaranteed to offend no one but an atheist. R. Martin Chavez