lied@ihlts.UUCP (Bob Lied) (04/03/84)
> Why is something "obviously" right? Where did you get this notion of a > universal morality? Don't let him set you up. This is the opening argument in the oft-referenced "Mere Christianity." You might want to read it before jumping in. Bob "Know thy enemy" Lied ihnp4!ihlts!lied
rcd@opus.UUCP (04/05/84)
<> >rcd (sorry rcd, I don't know your name): (Is there software somewhere dropping a "from" line? My full name is stashed there when it leaves our site. -Dick Dunn) The referenced article was a commentary on my atheistic and paths-instead- of-goals outlook. >>=me, >=Norris >> I am in life for the journey, not for the end. There's a fundamental >> philosophical difference here. I don't care for goals. When you reach a >> goal, you get (maybe) a brief elation at achieving it, followed by the >> cosmic sense of "So what? Now what?" Then you get to set another goal to >> achieve... >> Why not arrange to enjoy the journey. > >Even from a non-secular view, this attitude has its faults. Avoid setting any >goals, and you can avoid (some) pain. But don't you also avoid (some) pleasure? Of course. If you focus on goals, you can miss the journey, and vice-versa. One of my points is that you're likely to spend more time journeying than arriving, so focus on where you spend your time. >Still, from a moral view, this attitude has its faults. Are you to pursue this >enjoyment at the cost of others' happiness? Is your hedonism not to be >tempered with justice or kindness (each of which could concievably interfere >with your enjoyment)? Hold on a minute! Either the journey or the goal can be selfish, hedonistic, just, kind, etc. I can ask if your goal-orientation is not such that you reach your goals at the cost of others' happiness, etc. >> Achieving a goal is actually >> reaching a plateau. In other words, it's a time to stop and figure out >> where to go next. > >Do you mean, set another goal? Haven't you just let the cat out of the bag, >and told us that you do believe in goal-setting? Moreover, haven't you set for >yourself an overall goal (to have as much fun as possible), a goal which in >itself can lead to exactly the opposite? I distinguish between journeying and wandering aimlessly...don't you? Look, if I leave my office and walk to a park, I have a destination (goal), but what I'm really out for is the walk (journey). It doesn't mean that the goal is entirely unimportant or nonexistent; it's just secondary. When you make an argument against my position, first try to restate it with "journey" and "goal" interchanged. For example, if you pursue a goal, do you believe that the way you get there is entirely unimportant? Don't you believe in journey-planning (the counterpart to goal-setting)? I HAVE NOT SET A GOAL TO HAVE AS MUCH FUN AS POSSIBLE. I didn't say anything of the sort - why did you infer that? I DO try to be aware of what is happening to me. >> I behave as I >> do because it's obviously right to do so - not because I must do so for >> fear of going to hell. A morality enforced by fear of hell is not real >> morality; it's just good behavior induced by blackmail! >... >1) Why is something "obviously" right? Where did you get this notion of a > universal morality? Sorry - I should have said, "because it's obvious to me that it's right to do so..." >2) Why do people persist in associating hell with fear-induced morality? What > about the concepts of just punishment and desert? "Just punishment and desert" really means that if you sin, you will be punished, because you deserve it, doesn't it? Then the reason you don't sin is to avoid punishment. I think it's splitting hairs to say whether that's not fear of punishment. What about the concept of speedy trial and appropriate punishment? Do I really need to believe that when I die, I'm going to pay a little somehow for having snuck outside to play (against my parents' direction) when I was 3 years old? If I needlessly offend you right now, in this article, I should "pay" now or soon, in proportion to the hurt I cause. I need to live in the present, not always in the future. -- Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile. {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd