judy@ut-ngp.UUCP (04/04/84)
I'm not sure if the article I refer to here was posted to this group or net.flame, but it belongs here. I am AMAZED that no one else seems to know enough about Greek mythology to have answered yet! Well, here goes.... (Jon, please don't think I'm picking on you; but the truth is ...) > "Those who read only Hebrew mythology believe there was only one Christ, and > Savior; they do not know that there were at least sixteen...One has only to > read in full the story of Hercules to realize the pagan and mythic nature of > the whole Christ story. He too was born of a virgin, Alcmene; he too had a > god for a father, Zeus; he too was the `only begotten' of the father; he too > was called `Saviour,' the Greek Soter, and `the good shepherd,' Neulos Emelos. > And just as with Christ, he died, went to the lower world and then ascended to > heaven from Mount Orca. He was also called the Prince of Peace...(Deceptions > and Myths of the Bible, pp. 286-7)" I suppose that one should expect such a viewpoint from a book with that title. Unfortunately, it is not true. I looked up the story of Hercules (a.k.a. Herakles) and found that he did indeed go to the "lower world" (Hades), but he was ALIVE. He went down to bring back the hell-hound Kerberos (kinda like a guard-dog) as one of his 12 labors. He then returned the hound. He was fathered by Zeus (that much is also true) - but so were Apollo, Hermes, Ares, Perseus and at least a half DOZEN other male childern. And though Alcmene might have been a virgin when Zeus seduced her, Hercules was born at the same time as the son of her husband (his womb-mate; sorry, couldn't resist). He ascended to Olympus from Mount Orca after catching on fire. Sorry, I fail to see much resembalence between him and Jesus. As for the various titles, I think they are hardly significant. >The author, Lloyd M. Graham, goes on to cite other avatar myths that are >suspiciously similar to (and predate) the Jesus myth. Here are the names of >the avatars and their origins: > >Jesus--Nazareth Krishna--India Sakia--India >Iva--Nepal Indra--Tibet Mithra--Persia >Tammuz--Babylonia Criti--Chaldea Attis--Phrygia >Baili--Orrissa Thules--Egypt Orontes--Egypt >Odin--Scandinavia Hesus--the Druids Quetzalcoatl--Mexico >Witoba of the--Telingonese > >Note that almost without exception, these mythological characters were born >of a virgin (human) mother and fathered by a god. Each was considered to be a >savior and was crucified on a cross. After dying, each joined their father >in heaven. I haven't had time to research all of these, so I concentrated on the ones that were most familiar to me and therefore the easiest to find. Krishna - considered by the reference I used (Myths of All Races) as an incarnation of Vishnu who also appeared as a dwarf and several kinds of animals. According to this reference, he had an earthly mother and father. I don't think the Hindu's even THOUGHT in terms of people being fathered by gods. In any case, he definitly was NOT crucified on a cross! He was shot accidentally in the foot with an arrow. It was his only vunerable area. Shades of Achilles perhaps, but hardly similar to Christ. Odin - Gee, I always thought he was a Norse GOD, not the son of a god - and I was right. I could not even find a reference to his birth or death. Of course, I COULD have missed it, but I doubt it. This must be another exception. >Graham also comments on the lack of historical information on Jesus: > > "Had there actually lived a man who could raise the dead, heal the sick, and > walk on water, history would have recorded it. Why then did it not? For lack > of historians? Had this been the case, the believers would have at least a > negative proof, but oddly enough the period was peculiarly distinguished in > this respect. There were many historians just then and some of them the most > illustrious of all time... (Ibid p. 290)" Is this to say that there is no mention of Jesus AT ALL? Or that there is no historical reference to him raising the dead, etc.? I could understand not writing the miracles down, MOST historians want to be taken seriously. But NO mention of Christ at all, not even the MAN? That is perplexing. I shall have to research this also, when I have time. Of cource the reference will have to be from an unbiased source, probably Roman - they had no reason to lie either way. Judy
jonw@azure.UUCP (Jonathan White) (04/09/84)
Judy has taken issue with my claim that Jesus is nothing more than a myth. She made some good points by calling attention some factual errors in the account I quoted of Hercules, but the major parallels between the Jesus myth and the Hercules myth still stand: 1. They were both avatars (fathered by a god, but having a human mother). 2. They both had a lifelong mission of service to mankind. 3. They both willingly died (Hercules placed himself on a funeral pyre that he had ordered built), and then ascended into heaven to join their father. In order to give the author of the Hercules passage I quoted from the benefit of the doubt, there may be a possibility that the factual errors pointed out by Judy are really only discrepancies in different accounts. I also listed 15 other avatar myths that the author, Lloyd M. Graham, mentioned as being similar to (and predating) the Jesus myth. In an effort to rebut, Judy picked on two of the examples: Krishna - considered by the reference I used (Myths of All Races) as an incarnation of Vishnu who also appeared as a dwarf and several kinds of animals. True, but it is not clear from your sentence that Vishnu is the one who appeared as several kinds of animals, not Krishna. According to this reference, he had an earthly mother and father. I don't think the Hindu's even THOUGHT in terms of people being fathered by gods. You are certainly wrong in that assumption. Joseph Campbell gives this account of Krishna's birth: "...[Vishnu] plucked from his giant head two hairs, one white, one black, while a voice--infinitely inward--could be heard by all there assembled. `These two hairs' they heard, `shall descend upon the goddess Earth to relieve her of her burden: the white to become the seventh, and the black, the eighth child of Devaki, the chaste wife of the pious prince Vasudeva.' "And indeed, that very night, the goddess Yogenidra...descended on the princess Devaki. And she conceived of the white hair her seventh child... And so the time came for the work of the black hair, which, rendering Devaki's eight conception, produced an incarnation of the world dreamer Vishnu himself...in the black-blue form of Krishna. (The Mythic Image, pp. 46-47)" Interestingly enough, the baby Krishna had to be hidden away from an evil king who had heard a prophesy that Krishna would destroy him if allowed to live. In any case, he definitly was NOT crucified on a cross! He was shot accidentally in the foot with an arrow. It was his only vu[l]nerable area. This appears to be the case. Odin - Gee, I always thought he was a Norse GOD, not the son of a god - and I was right. I could not even find a reference to his birth or death. Of course, I COULD have missed it, but I doubt it. This must be another exception. Well, you did miss it. According to Larousse World Mythology, Odin was fathered by the god Bor and born to Bestla, a giant's daughter. Although I could find no explicit reference to his death, Odin did undergo voluntary self-sacrifice by wounding himself with a lance and hanging from a tree for nine days. (By the way, a tree was a mythological symbol to Germanic people.) He waited in vain for someone to come along and alleviate his suffering, but after nine days managed to "rejuvinate" himself by some spiritual means. All this is not to say that I think the stories of Krishna or Odin offer conclusive parallels to the Jesus myth. I think some further research is in order before it can be claimed that the Jesus myth originated from any particular source. Graham comments on the lack of historical information on Jesus: "Had there actually lived a man who could raise the dead, heal the sick, and walk on water, history would have recorded it. Why then did it not? For lack of historians? Had this been the case, the believers would have at least a negative proof, but oddly enough the period was peculiarly distinguished in this respect. There were many historians just then and some of them the most illustrious of all time... (Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, p. 290)" Judy responded: Is this to say that there is no mention of Jesus AT ALL? Or that there is no historical reference to him raising the dead, etc.? I could understand not writing the miracles down, MOST historians want to be taken seriously. But NO mention of Christ at all, not even the MAN? That is perplexing. I shall have to research this also, when I have time. Of cource the reference will have to be from an unbiased source, probably Roman - they had no reason to lie either way. Apparently, there was no mention whatsoever of Christ the man. "It has always been an unfailing source of astonishment to the historical investigator of Christian beginnings that there is not one single word from the pen of any pagan writer of the first century of our era which can in any fashion be referred to the marvelous story recounted by the Gospel writers. The very existence of Jesus seems unknown (G.R.S. Mead, in Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.?)" (By the way, the title of the book in this quote refers to a mythological Jesus of the pre-Christian Nazerites.) "Whether accepting or rejecting Christ, one would think that the Jewish historians would at least admit so great a personage was of their race. And if anyone should do so, it should be Philo. This philosopher-historian lived both before and after the time of Christ, yet never mentions him. The only direct reference to Jesus in Jewish history of the time is found in Josephus, born in Jerusalem, 37 A.D., but no serious student today, not even the theologian, believes Josephus wrote it. (Deceptions and Myths of the Bible, p. 293)" I have not yet received any replies to my earlier challenge: does anyone have any valid historical evidence that Jesus ever existed? If not, then we are all wasting a lot of time arguing about nothing! Jon White [decvax|ucbvax]!tektronix!tekmdp!azure!jonw