notes@iuvax.UUCP (04/09/84)
#R:azure:-266500:iuvax:1700012:000:1815
iuvax!dsaker Apr 8 16:29:00 1984
Reply to Jeff Sargent:
You seem to have completely misunderstood Darrell's point.
A Christian tells me that a year ago, while he was still an atheist,
his life was in a mess, things were headed down, his girlfriend was
leaving him. Then on the basis of a dare he read the new testament, or
went to church, or whatever, and became a Christian. Amazingly, the pieces
of his life started coming together, even his girlfriend came back to him
- and she too became a Christian.
Now, this Christian sees here evidence for the truth of his beliefs.
The argument seems to be that these things could not have come to pass
if his beliefs were not true. Darrell's point was that this argument is
garbage because it applies just as well to other religions. Every
religion (at least every one that I have ever encountered - and that is a
lot) has converts who experienced miraculous changes in their lives after
their conversion. Talk to the Moonie down the street or the local Baha'i
believer; read about followers of Jim Jones. The fact that these miraculous
changes are experienced by converts to all sorts of religions - this fact
is support for the argument that the miraculous changes are independent of
the truth of what is believed.
Can you now see why "Christ changed my life" is an unconvincing testimony?
The fact that the convert experienced a large change in his life does not
support the truth of his beliefs. Perhaps the change is a result of his
having convictions about the ultimate nature of existence, convictions
that tell him life is meaningful and ultimately just and joyous in its
outcome. The change may have nothing to do with the truth of his convictions.
Remember, the Muslim convert next door is saying "Allah changed my life".
Daryel Akerlind
...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!dsakeremjej@uokvax.UUCP (04/12/84)
#R:azure:-266500:uokvax:8300052:000:1262 uokvax!emjej Apr 12 10:25:00 1984 /***** uokvax:net.religion / pucc-h!aeq / 12:15 am Apr 8, 1984 */ The fact that there is strong evidence (one might call it compelling) for the efficacy of Christianity (as to other religions, I don't know), and yet many people don't believe it, indicates that those who DON'T believe are the ones being duped. I still don't understand why you consider "Christ changed my life" to be an unconvincing testimony; if someone's life was going nowhere but downhill before he accepted Christ, and Christ turned him around, that ought to be convincing. /* ---------- */ Sigh. One tires of pointing this out repeatedly, and hence I'll do it this one last time, even though it means abandoning the field to fallacious logic: the most that one can conclude from that sort of anecdotal evidence is that believing in *SOMETHING* (Ubizmo, Christ, Marx, the trans-Jovian Jelly Donut) in some cases changes people's lives. It doesn't seem that the object of belief, its validity, or current existence makes much difference; it is the belief that is significant--I suppose it gives those who need it a reason to slog through everyday life and a feeling of being in on something that matters (Ahura-Mazda vs. Ahriman, or the quest for the One Ring, etc.). James Jones