dsaker@iuvax.UUCP (Daryel Sachse Akerlind) (04/06/84)
Several years ago, I had an interesting conversation with a Christian. He was maintaining that all those who did not believe in the Christian God (and a reasonable amount of accompanying standard doctrine -- we never managed to pin down exactly what an acceptable minimal set of doctrines would be) and accept Jesus as their Saviour before they died would be damned. Now, of course this raised all sorts of moral awkwardnesses such as: What happens to those who die as babies? But I don't want to discuss those points, and I didn't waste much time on them then. What interested me was this business of belief. Why do people believe in God? (And let's consider the Christian God so that we can talk a bit more specifically, although the discussion should apply quite generally.) I have never read or heard of anyone who came to believe on the basis of reading the bible, say, weighing its plausibility, and coming to the conclusion that it must be true. A few people with whom I have spoken have started out claiming this as the basis of their conversion, but always, after questioning, they have admitted that this was not so. Every case of conversion of which I know has rested on a profound "spiritual experience", a revelation of God's existence. Now, I have never had a revelation of God's existence. So, given that I start from a position of disbelief in God, on what grounds am I supposed to believe? Surely I can't be expected (by God or anyone) to believe on the basis of the objective evidence. Furthermore, I can't just will myself to believe. In any case, what would be the virtue in willing oneself to believe? The substance of my belief would be an arbitrary concoction. This brings us back to a revelation of God's existence. Now, I have, at various times in my life, done as Christians urged, and prayed for help in this matter. I have been in such distress that I have literally wept on my knees for some reassurance, some glimmer of illumination. But no awareness of God has ever visited me. So how can I be expected to believe? Why should I be punished for not believing? The Christian I was talking to had a theory: There is no good reason to believe in God. You either do or you don't -- and you don't really have any voluntary control over the matter. What God is doing is selecting for those who happen to believe correctly. Perhaps believing correctly stems from some mysterious faculty possessed by certain humans, and that is what God is selecting for. Now, that doesn't please me very much, and I am still left wondering about this belief business. What sense does it make to exhort someone to believe? As if someone had a choice. Before signing off, there is one other point I would like to raise. I mentioned these "spiritual experiences" that seem to form the foundations of people's belief. In every case I know of, the experiences supported only a very small part of what the person ended up believing. I am left with my original question: Why do people believe as they do? Daryel Akerlind ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!dsaker
notes@iuvax.UUCP (04/09/84)
#N:iuvax:1700011:000:3103 iuvax!dsaker Apr 8 15:14:00 1984 Several years ago, I had an interesting conversation with a Christian. He was maintaining that all those who did not believe in the Christian God (and a reasonable amount of accompanying standard doctrine -- we never managed to pin down exactly what an acceptable minimal set of doctrines would be) and accept Jesus as their Saviour before they died would be damned. Now, of course this raised all sorts of moral awkwardnesses such as: What happens to those who die as babies? But I don't want to discuss those points, and I didn't waste much time on them then. What interested me was this business of belief. Why do people believe in God? (And let's consider the Christian God so that we can talk a bit more specifically, although the discussion should apply quite generally.) I have never read or heard of anyone who came to believe on the basis of reading the bible, say, weighing its plausibility, and coming to the conclusion that it must be true. A few people with whom I have spoken have started out claiming this as the basis of their conversion, but always, after questioning, they have admitted that this was not so. Every case of conversion of which I know has rested on a profound "spiritual experience", a revelation of God's existence. Now, I have never had a revelation of God's existence. So, given that I start from a position of disbelief in God, on what grounds am I supposed to believe? Surely I can't be expected (by God or anyone) to believe on the basis of the objective evidence. Furthermore, I can't just will myself to believe. In any case, what would be the virtue in willing oneself to believe? The substance of my belief would be an arbitrary concoction. This brings us back to a revelation of God's existence. Now, I have, at various times in my life, done as Christians urged, and prayed for help in this matter. I have been in such distress that I have literally wept on my knees for some reassurance, some glimmer of illumination. But no awareness of God has ever visited me. So how can I be expected to believe? Why should I be punished for not believing? The Christian I was talking to had a theory: There is no good reason to believe in God. You either do or you don't -- and you don't really have any voluntary control over the matter. What God is doing is selecting for those who happen to believe correctly. Perhaps believing correctly stems from some mysterious faculty possessed by certain humans, and that is what God is selecting for. Now, that doesn't please me very much, and I am still left wondering about this belief business. What sense does it make to exhort someone to believe? As if someone had a choice. Before signing off, there is one other point I would like to raise. I mentioned these "spiritual experiences" that seem to form the foundations of people's belief. In every case I know of, the experiences supported only a very small part of what the person ended up believing. I am left with my original question: Why do people believe as they do? Daryel Akerlind ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!dsaker
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (04/10/84)
I will attempt to reply to at least some of the points made by Daryel Akerlind. (BTW, dumb question: I've never seen the name "Daryel" before; are you male or female?) > Every case of conversion of which I know has rested on a profound > "spiritual experience", a revelation of God's existence. Alas, I cannot personally provide a counterexample. While I admit that my initial experience of God included a sense of the logic of the whole setup, that the sacrifice of Jesus fulfilled the O.T. sacrifices (Romans 8:3 was the key verse), there was a real sense of illumination more than would come from just logic. However, I have one friend who (if I remember her account of her experience correctly) was a practicing Christian for some years before she had any revelation of God. > Now, I have never had a revelation of God's existence. So, given that I > start from a position of disbelief in God, on what grounds am I supposed to > believe? Surely I can't be expected (by God or anyone) to believe on the > basis of the objective evidence. Furthermore, I can't just will myself to > believe. In any case, what would be the virtue in willing > oneself to believe? The substance of my belief would be an arbitrary > concoction. As mentioned before, the objective evidence is not 100% conclusive proof, so I understand your reluctance. And you're right; one cannot will oneself to BELIEVE. However, there is a choice that one can make: One can choose either to commit oneself to follow Christ (you might add: if He's really there) and try to live like Him and be as self-sacrificing as He, or to continue to live entirely for oneself. It's a question of commitment more than belief. > This brings us back to a revelation of God's existence. Now, I have, at > various times in my life, done as Christians urged, and prayed for help > in this matter. I have been in such distress that I have literally > wept on my knees for some reassurance, some glimmer of illumination. > But no awareness of God has ever visited me. I truly admire your honesty in admitting that you even wept about this. Not all people would weep; and not all would admit it. I really wish I had a good answer for you; I don't want you to be unhappy. I could come out with the pat answer, "You went to God to try to get your own pain healed rather than to commit yourself to His will"; but that's too critical; Jesus Himself met and healed people where they were, and when what they plainly wanted was healing; I've heard it said "No one comes to God for the right reasons"; so God should be willing to take you where you are. I don't know what God has in mind for you, so I don't know why He hasn't made Himself plain to you. I can pray for you (alas, I am still such a selfish hound that it is difficult for me to make myself pray for others, but I'll give it a shot) that God will enable you to know Him and follow Him. > So how can I be expected to believe? Why should I be punished for not > believing? Again, it's a question of commitment to go in a direction other than entirely on your own. As for punishment: C.S. Lewis, I think quoting another author, remarked that the doors of Hell are locked on the INSIDE; i.e. that Hell is not so much a place to which God condemns people as a place, or a state, which people choose themselves -- because they choose to prefer themselves to God, and they lock God out. > The Christian I was talking to had a theory: > There is no good reason to believe in God. You either do or you > don't -- and you don't really have any voluntary control over the > matter. What God is doing is selecting for those who happen to believe > correctly. Perhaps believing correctly stems from some mysterious > faculty possessed by certain humans, and that is what God is selecting > for. > Now, that doesn't please me very much, and I am still left wondering > about this belief business. What sense does it make to exhort someone > to believe? As if someone had a choice. Not to start the omniscience/free will debate again, but I disagree with your Christian acquaintance. Numerous times in the Bible, people are exhorted to choose whether or not to serve God. I doubt whether God would inspire His chosen leaders to make such exhortations if in fact no choice was possible. One needs to make that choice, to repent (the Greek word for which means literally "change the mind"), to turn from concentration on self to concentration on serving God and serving other people. Note that this is not a one-time occurrence, but something that must be done every day, indeed every hour, or at even finer granularity. > I mentioned these "spiritual experiences" that seem to form the foundations > of people's belief. In every case I know of, the experiences supported > only a very small part of what the person ended up believing. I am left > with my original question: Why do people believe as they do? To be honest, part of the reason people adopt various doctrines is that they are taught them by other people. In fact this is probably the major reason why people believe the various doctrines ABOUT God. However, Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide believers into all truth; so there's that aspect at work also. As to why people believe in God Himself: All I can do on the net is encourage you to try committing yourself to God (as I've already discussed), try to act Christlike to those about you (more so than you may already be doing), and pray for God to meet your needs (which may include a revelation, or which may include patience to wait for such a revelation). I really feel that this whole reply is inadequate, but it's the best I can come up with this fast; I just hope and pray that it will do some good. -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq One man's data is another man's garbage.
notes@iuvax.UUCP (04/12/84)
#R:iuvax:1700011:iuvax:1700014:000:3889 iuvax!dsaker Apr 11 21:03:00 1984 Reply to Jeff Sargent: > BTW, dumb question: I've never seen the name "Daryel" > before; are you male or female? Yes. I will comment further if it ever becomes important. It will probably become obvious if I keep submitting to this group. > As mentioned before, the objective evidence is not 100% conclusive proof, so I understand your reluctance. And you're right; one cannot will oneself to BELIEVE. However, there is a choice that one can make: One can choose either to commit oneself to follow Christ (you might add: if He's really there) and try to live like Him and be as self-sacrificing as He, or to continue to live entirely for oneself. It's a question of commitment more than belief. I don't want to be prickly, but (1) Can you really expect someone to commit themselves to Christ when they do not believe? That strikes me as absurd; it would be totally arbitrary. I might as well commit myself to following the Reverend Moon or Allah. (No offence intended to Muslims.) (2) How dare you say that the alternative to committing oneself to Christ is living entirely for oneself! I expect the followers of every other religious persuasion as well as the humanists and many others to leap on you for that. > Again, it's a question of commitment to go in a direction other than entirely on your own. As for punishment: C.S. Lewis, I think quoting another author, remarked that the doors of Hell are locked on the INSIDE; i.e. that Hell is not so much a place to which God condemns people as a place, or a state, which people choose themselves -- because they choose to prefer themselves to God, and they lock God out. If someone is sincerely seeking the truth (about existence, or whatever you want to call it) and they don't follow Christ because they do not believe in him (which is the same reason why they are not following Allah or Buddha or Krishna or any other), then you can't say that they have chosen to cut themselves off from God. They might be mistakenly doing that, but they are most definitely not choosing to do that. If there is a God, I am trying to find him. But I am trying to find the God that exists. I am not trying to commit myself to a set of doctrines; I am trying to find the truth. Surely you must admit that if someone is sincerely seeking the truth and they do not believe in Christ (i.e. they don't believe Christianity's claims about him), then there is absolutely no reason for them to commit themselves to Christ. Such a commitment could only be seen by them as a betrayal of their search for the truth. Surely you will admit that for them to commit themselves to Allah (or Krishna or Buddha or whoever-else) would be a mistake or, at least, counter to their search for the truth. The same thing applies to committing themselves to Christ. And don't say that they should try Christ. Do you know how many religions there are? Lots. Why should they start with Christ? How would you feel if they started with non-christian religions and died before the got to Christ? Where should they start? And how long should they spend committed to each religion before they moved on to the next one? This whole approach is a mockery of commitment as well as the search for the truth. I threw the above paragraph in because I have been told many times to "try Christ". At first I was told "pray and Christ (or God) will surely answer you". When he didn't answer me I was told that was because I had prayed without belief. (I guess that some Christians have a well-developed sense of irony.) So, if God (Christ or whoever) is out there, why is he making me suffer so much by not revealing himself to me. I am trying my hardest to find the truth, and if he is the truth, then I am trying my hardest to find him. Daryel Akerlind ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!dsaker
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (04/13/84)
Daryel Akerlind properly demolished an article I think I wrote when I was half asleep.... >> = Sargent > = Akerlind >> ....there is a choice that one can make: One can choose either to commit >> oneself to follow Christ (you might add: if He's really there) and try to >> live like Him and be as self-sacrificing as He, or to continue to live >> entirely for oneself. It's a question of commitment more than belief. > (1) Can you really expect someone to commit themselves to Christ when they > do not believe? That strikes me as absurd; it would be totally arbitrary. > I might as well commit myself to following the Reverend Moon or Allah. > (No offence intended to Muslims.) For the moment, one can at least commit oneself to the attempt to live a loving life, as Christ exemplified, and as Paul analyzed in I Corinthians 13; i.e. commit oneself to a life of growth into full humanity. I agree that it's unlikely, if not impossible, to commit oneself to someone in whom one does not believe. > (2) How dare you say that the alternative to committing oneself to Christ is > living entirely for oneself! I expect the followers of every other > religious persuasion as well as the humanists and many others to leap on > you for that. I think my paragraph came out wrong. (I've just been reading C.S. Lewis's *The Problem of Pain*; much of this material is a dyspeptically digested version of some of his stuff. This, BTW, provides an argument against those who would wish us to post summaries of books on the net; our summaries may well be distorted.) Actually, Lewis himself has speculated (in *Mere Christianity*, even) that God may save some people who have never heard of Christ or Christianity, but who try to live a loving life. (I do wonder what God will do for the Jews, many of whom undoubtedly are very good people but who reject Jesus as Messiah despite His fulfilling many prophecies of the suffering Messiah.) Perhaps what I wanted to say was: Don't trust in your own righteousness, though it may be great (in fact you come across as basically a very good person--honest, sensitive, etc.--just bitter); rather, ask for God to give you Christ's righteousness. I grant that this gets back to your basic difficulty of belief that God is a) there at all, b) righteous, c) loving. I'll talk more about this later. I cannot disagree with your comment that someone who is seeking truth, God, or what/whoever as sincerely as he (she?) knows how is not cutting himself off from God (yes, this is slightly paraphrased, but I think this states the idea correctly). I also agree that committing oneself to something which one does not think true is indeed a "betrayal of [one's] search for truth"; since it would mean committing to something which one considered untrue, this is obvious. I am glad that you are looking for truth rather than doctrines. As to why it is recommended to "try Christ": Many belief systems include the idea of trying to be righteous and gain approval of god(s) (if any) entirely by our own efforts. Christianity states that we are unconditionally loved even while we are sinners, and that we can have help as we seek to be righteous. Christianity offers a better deal. > At first I was told "pray and Christ (or God) will surely answer you". > When he didn't answer me I was told that was because I had prayed without > belief. (I guess that some Christians have a well-developed sense of irony.) Aarghh! If that were really the way things worked (or didn't work), no one could be saved (i.e. if you don't believe, pray; but your prayer won't work because you don't believe). Some Christians, it must be conceded, apparently lack a well-developed sense of logic.... > So, if God (Christ or whoever) is out there, why is he making me suffer > so much by not revealing himself to me. I am trying my hardest to find > the truth, and if he is the truth, then I am trying my hardest to find him. Alas, I have only one honest answer to your question: I don't know! (That exclamation point means to read the sentence very plaintively.) I have no idea why, specifically, God would make you wait. I hope that someday you will look back on this experience and see that it was better to wait than to know right off. The Bible does contain a verse which is usually translated something like "Ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." The kicker is that (if I recall correctly) the verbs in the Greek are actually in a tense that might more accurately be translated "keep asking", "keep seeking", "keep knocking". I pray that you may have the strength, courage, and patience to do that. -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq One man's data are another man's garbage.