colonel@sunybcs.UUCP (George Sicherman) (04/06/84)
[I don't think, therefore ...] Just to introduce a fresh topic ... Does God really damn people for eternity? (This was a hot topic a century or so ago.)
aeq@pucc-h (coyote) (04/12/84)
(Once again I play network gateway for another promising new writer. -- JJS)
A modest reply to David Sicherman`s question
'Does God really damn people for eternity?'
In all honesty, I don`t think that God does the damning. To borrow
from the NRA (shudder),
"God doesn`t damn people; people damn themselves."
The whole issue is a matter of wills: yours versus God`s. If you put
yourself, your will, and your needs, wants and urges above all else,
you will certainly be damned. (The old quip, "People who are wrapped
up in themselves make small packages" comes to mind.) If you let your
will rule your life, you look within yourself constantly and shut out
the Light.
If I may go off on a tangent for a moment, let me say that Christians
who state that God, or Jesus, or the Spirit is within them are not
lying. The catch is that it is only one half of the truth. He/They
live outside as well. In fact, God is everywhere and everywhen. It`s
frightening, when you think about it. Speaking personally, however, I
see far more of the Creator`s majesty in the world around me than I do
in my own person. I am an awfully small container, but a good receiver.
Once again, we damn ourselves. This is not mere semantics. God has
thrown us a lifeline in the person of Jesus, and it is up to each person
to accept or refuse it. YOU choose--God will not make the decision for
you. That`s free will, and you`re stuck with it.
As for the eternity of it, I don`t profess to know. Some theologians
and other writers claim that a journey from Hell to Heaven (and those
are two very real places, though I don`t know their exact composition)
is possible. However, the Revelation tells of a final judgement, though
it does not speak in exact terms about when it will happen. Neither
does it speak of the state of people who die before this judgement
(i.e., are their souls conscious and active, or are they in some sort
of "suspended animation"?) Lest I find out the hard way that goats
can`t turn into sheep after this life, I have decided to cast my lot
with God now.
This brings me to one last comment. Christianity is far more than "fire
insurance." I didn`t commit myself to Christ because I feared Hell, but
rather because I saw how He works in this life. I am saved from the pit,
and I don`t want to undercut the importance of that, but my life has
been better ever since I decided that "me first" just doesn`t work.
"Hell on earth" becomes literal for those who turn away from the Creator--
the agonies of Hell, as well as the joys of Heaven, begin here.
The decision rests in the hands of each individual. I could go into
other topics from here, one being the perennial complaint, "Well, if
God loves us so much why doesn`t He save us regardless? Why do I have
to make a decision?" I leave this to someone more capable than I.
I recommend "The Great Divorce", by C.S. Lewis, for an interesting
perspective on damnation and the war of wills.
coyote (Steven Crane)
{allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:knulabelle@hplabsc.UUCP (WB6YZZ Labelle) (04/12/84)
There is no GOD so don't worry about it! If there was one, as some of the jelly brains contend, and he was giving us all these tests- rewarding those who passed and torturing all who didn't, then I'd say to hell with HIM!
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (04/17/84)
From labelle@hplabsc.UUCP (WB6YZZ Labelle): > There is no GOD so don't worry about it! If there was one, as some of the > jelly brains contend, and he was giving us all these tests- rewarding those > who passed and torturing all who didn't, then I'd say to hell with HIM! "This is not net.flame," he said mildly. How truly my old friend Doug Dickey said that when atheists are asked to describe the God in whom they disbelieve, they come out with a caricature of the true God, a distorted version which OUGHT to be rejected. God is not in the business of administering tests to determine who passes and who fails. We've already all failed, and we continue to fail! God is more interested in the direction you're going -- i.e. if you are trying to follow Him and become more like Him, you will have your reward; if not, you'll get what you've chosen -- eternity without God. It may not be as pleasant as you think. Quoting (approximately, by memory) from two C.S. Lewis books: From "The Problem of Pain": There may be pleasures, of a sort, in Hell (God save us from them); and there may be pains, in a sense, in Heaven (God grant that we may taste them soon). From "The Great Divorce": There are two types of people: Those who say to God, "Thy will be done", and those to whom God says, in the end, "THY will be done!" -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "Rivers belong where they can ramble..."