amra@ihuxj.UUCP (Steven L. Aldrich) (06/13/84)
So far I've gotten some very interesting replies to my article
on hermaphroditism. The quality is superb as well as the content.
I'd like to share these with you, in the hopes of stimulating
even more discussion on this and related subjects. But first, let
me share the views/opinions/etc of those people who've been kind
enough to reply. I'll have some additional comments later, at the
end of this posting. Thanks again for your time and effort. It is
appreciated!
I've used "*"'s to seperate the various articles. With the exception
of "header info" the articles appear complete and un-altered. Hope
you enjoy them as much as I did.
**********************************************************************
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 84 00:39:54 edt
From: ihnp4!seismo!rochester!ritcv!ccieng5!jbf (Jens Bernhard Fiederer)
Subject: Re: Questions on hermaphroditism (Probably offensive to somebody )
To: ihnp4!ihuxj!amra
References: <532@ihuxj.UUCP>
1) Both masturbation and incest.
2) Who cares? The labels were made for more common situations. For
what it is worth, I see nothing wrong in two herms having sex....
3) It is not cloning -- cloning would imply identical genes,
self-fertilization can shuffle things (i.e., for a hH pair,
hh, HH, and Hh would all be possible.
Jens
*****************************************************************
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 84 19:11:08 pdt
From: ihnp4!sun!sunny (Sunny Kirsten)
Message-Id: <8406080211.AA10195@sun.uucp>
To: ihnp4!ihuxj!amra
Subject: would this be a form of cloning?
1) If a hermaphrodite were to have intercource with themself
would this be considered incest? masturbation?? something else???
Masturbation. It would be difficult to NOT use your hands, (unless
you could figure out a way to move your vagina in one direction while
simultaneously moving your penis in the opposite direction :-)
2) If two hermaphrodites were to have a sexual relationship,
would they be considered to be homosexual heterosexual or
androgynous?
You'd have to ask *them* what they considered themselves. YOU have NO reason
to care. ( ED COMMENT: I DON'T, but "society " might think "it" does.)
3) IF,and this is pushing the point to extremes, a Fully
Functional hermaphrodite ( one who has both male & female
reproductive organs which function normaly) were to
impregnate themselves, would this be a form of cloning?
Yes, as it would be if you cloned yourself a "sister" or "brother" and proceeded
to have intercourse with your newly cloned relative. Is THIS (either this)
to be considered incest? By whom?
4) What would the social/moral/religious implications of number 3 be?
Here is the real crux of the matter. Society always has problems dealing with
those who insist on being individuals (even if they only insist through a
birth defect which is NOT their fault). Such is the case with the physical
hermaphrodite (the one you mentioned in your kick-off news article), AND
with the "mental hermaphrodite" (gender dysphoric or androgynous). It seems
that the main question you are asking, is how do I correctly misapply all my
illogical social/moral/religious/sexual/genderal/bigoted/? training to
properly categorize this hard-to-categorize individual, so I'll know whether
I have to feel hatred, or am allowed to feel OK about this individual as a
person. If this IS your question, then I'm finished. If you really want to
know more about hermaphroditism and gender roles, then you Email to me now.
If you don't understand the difference between sex and gender, then we have
no common ground for further discussion. I'm not trying to be offensive, or
put you off, in any way. It's analagous to someone asking about calculus
without knowing how to add or subtract. You must have the foundation of
understanding to proceed to the next level of complexity. I'll gladly
explain the difference between gender and sex, if need be, but if I have to
do that, I'll post it to news, because there's much need for the distinction
to be recognized in several of the discussions underway in net.women.only,
net.women, net.singles, net.social, net.motss, et. al.
[ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4]!sun!sunny (Sunny Kirsten of Sun Microsystems)
Copyright June 11, 1984, Sunny Kirsten, all rights reserved.
Specific permission is granted to make any copy which includes both the
copyright notice and credit as to author.
[ucbvax,decvax,ihnp4]!sun!sunny (Sunny Kirsten of Sun Microsystems)
************************************************************
From: ihnp4!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 84 16:48:57 edt
Subject: hermaphs.
True hermaphrodites are actually a genetic mosaic of two different
cell lines (usually one being predominant in the body), so their two
sets of sex organs are actually from two different zygotes...
This is sort of like being their own fraternal twin.
Congratulate me...I just finished my second year of medical
school at CWRU ... TODAY!
David Kushner
decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!dmk
***********************************************************
>From mcnc!ecsvax!hes Fri Jun 8 20:01:17 1984 remote from ihnp4
From: ihnp4!mcnc!ecsvax!hes
Date: 8 Jun 84 08:50:04 EDT (Fri)
Original-From: Henry Schaffer <hes@ecsvax>
Subject: hermaphroditism
In a biological sense, a hermaphrodite is functional and can produce both
sperm and eggs. (I'm discussing animals, different terms are use for plants.)
In this sense I do not believe that any actual humans qualify. In many cases
mating leads to a reciprocal exchange of sperm, eg with snails.
I'm not sure if there are any philosophical implications, except that snails
don't have to worry about life insurance and annuity differentials with respect
to sex :-).
The genetic relationship between an individual and itself is exactly the
same as between identical twins. Assuming that the gametes were formed by
normal meiotic processes, then such a mating *if possible* would be even
more likely to lead to homozygous recessive defective offspring than one
between full sibs. (I also meant to say that the random sampling process of
meiosis means that one doesn't get a clone, because "clone" implies an exact
copy of a genotype, not the sum of two random 50% samples of the genotype.
Note that "random" as used here means something like random selection of the
centromeres, by pairs, and of chromosomal segments as determined by
recombination.)
--henry schaffer genetics ncsu
**************************************************************
Date: 6 Jun 84 14:15:29 CDT (Wed)
From: ihnp4!ihopa!drr
Subject: Re: Questions on hermaphroditism (Probably offensive to somebody )
I have nothing to donate to your survey because I don't know
anything about the subject. But I would like to say that it
was nice to see an origional article in this group. Keep up
the good work and don't forget to post the results.
***************************************************************
From **RJE** Thu Jun 7 12:06 CDT 1984
>From **RJE** Thu Jun 7 12:06 CDT 1984 forwarded by **RJE**
>From llf Thu Jun 7 13:05 EDT 1984 remote from houxz
To: ihuxj!amra
Subject: Re: Questions on hermaphroditism (Probably offensive to somebody )
References: <532@ihuxj.UUCP>
NO, IT'S NOT CONSIDERED CLONING! :-)
cheers!
**********************************************************
From: pooh@ut-sally.UUCP (Wendy P. Nather)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.social,net.philosophy
Subject: Re: Questions on hermaphroditism (Probably offensive to somebody )
Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas
I'm not going to touch the social implications of two hermaphrodites
having sex, but regarding the cloning question:
>From what I know of biology and genetics (and I could be wrong
here--any biologists out there?), since the sex cells must
undergo meiosis (both sperm and egg), there is enough genetic
recombination so that a hermaphrodite who impregnated him/herself
would not be cloning. However, as with identical twins, the
chances of lethal reinforcement of genes are very high.
Question: would such a child have genetic makeup more closely
identical to that of his parent than the child of identical twins?
Wendy [NO NUKES! TURN OFF THE SUN!]
{ihnp4!,seismo!,allegra!}ut-sally!pooh
************************************************************
From: rh@mit-eddie.UUCP (Randy Haskins)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.social,net.philosophy,net.bio
Subject: Re: Questions on hermaphroditism (Probably offensive to somebody )
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, MA
I took the liberty of moving this into net.bio in addition to the
groups it is in in the hopes of enticing people with scientific
knowledge to contribute. As I understand it, hermaphrodites have
all sorts of problems, and I think the vast major of them don't
even have one set of gender-organs working completely. I think
the instances of h's having the female reproductive organs
functional is very low. Anyone know for sure?
--
Randwulf (Randy Haskins); Path= genrad!mit-eddie!rh
****************************************************************
From: rrizzo@bbncca.ARPA (Ron Rizzo)
Newsgroups: net.religion,net.social,net.philosophy
Subject: Re: Questions on hermaphroditism (Probably offensive to somebody )
References: <532@ihuxj.UUCP>
Organization: Bolt, Beranek and Newman, Cambridge, Ma.
There's an interesting & well-written novel set in East Texas whose main
character is a Tex-Mex hermaphrodite:
William Goyen, ARCADIO (not in paperback)
"Don't conform! It's so tired."
Ron Rizzo
*****************************************************************
Hello again, I wished to add some more questions to
my last posting. These may or may not add anything to
the subject, but I thought I'd pose them and see what happens.
Here goes........
5) How are hermaphrodites treated in differant cultures?
Are they shunned, persecuted, revered, etc?
6) Is this a hereditory tendancy in familial or cultural
groups?
7) How often does this happen,(what % of births), and
is it caused by environmental/genetic influences?
Well, that's enough for now. Thanks to everyone who has spent
the time and effort to send their information/views/opinions.
I believe this may lead to some interesting/informative debate
and discussions on this and related subjects. Keep the replies
and info coming. Always glad to hear from others, even if we don't
happen to agree. Well time to close; see you in the funny papers!
BEST REGARDS,
Steve Aldrich
ihnp4!ihuxj!amra
P.S. "Have you ever noticed you NEVER get laid much on
Thanksgiving? I think it's because all the coats
are on the bed." [ :-) ]
George Carlin