brunson@usfbobo.UUCP (%David Brunson) (07/10/84)
[]
I've recently read the book, "The Anguish of the Jews" by Edward
Flannery (Macmillan 1965). In it, Mr. Flannery traces the history
of anti-semitism from Pagan through modern times: 2300 years.
For me, the most instructive part of the book is that which deals
with the Christian era; that is, the period of time when the Christian
Church held political control over Europe. Like most Christians,
I had thought Christian persecution of Jews was over-exaggerated,
consisting mainly of a few flakoid popes and the famed "Spanish
Inquisition". Instead, Mr. Flannery convincingly demonstrates
that Christian anti-semitism was more the rule than the exception
and was advanced both ideologically and explicitly by not just
a few derranged papists, but by nearly all church leaders and
many key Defenders of the Faith.
Some example quotations:
"[Jews are] inveterate murderers, destroyers, men possessed by
the devil" whom "debauchery and drunkenness have given them the
manners of the pig ... They know only one thing, to satisfy their
gullets, get drunk, to kill and maim one another ... they have
surpassed the ferocity of wild beasts, for they murder their
offspring and immolate them to the devil ... ***He who can never
love Christ enough will never have done fighting against those
[Jews] who hate him***"
John Chrysostom
One common Christian idea was that Jews are "Christ-killers":
"It would be licit, according to custom, to hold Jews, because
of their crime [killing Christ], in perpetual servitude, and
therefore the princes may regard the possessions of Jews as
belonging to the state ..."
Thomas Aquinas
"Jews are poisoners, ritual murderers, usurers; they are
parasites on Christian society; they are worse than devils;
it is harder to convert them than Satan himself; they are
doomed to hell. They are, in truth, the anti-Christ.
***Their synagogues should be destroyed and their books seized;
they should be forced to work with their hands; better still
they should be expelled by the princes from their territories***"
Martin Luther
Blaise Pascal, Augustine, and nearly every Catholic pope seem
to have held similar ridiculous opinions. One gets the impression
that this list is by no means exhaustive: Flannery is only giving
a survey history of a very long era in less than 200 pages. I am
aware of a similar quote from John Calvin and I intend to do some
more thorough research on the biggies of Christendom.
To my mind, the height of the madness and non-scriptural foolishness
that seems to have seized the Church can be seen in the following
passage from the book. The context is the Inquisition in Spain.
Torquemada was the Grand Inquisitor appointed by the Pope:
"On January 2, 1492, while still in Granada, Ferdinand and Isabella
issued the fatal decree. All Jews must leave the realm by July 30
under the penalty of death, since, in the words of the decree,
'Jews seduce the new Christians,' and expulsion is 'the only
efficacious means of putting an end to these evils.' Stunned by
the edict, powerful Jews, led by Abraham Senior, chief rabbi and
tax collector, offered an enormous sum of money to the king, who
was known for his avariciousness. The story is told that at the
critical moment, as Ferdinand reconsidered his decision, Torquemada
rushed onto the scene, holding a crucifix aloft, and cried: 'Judas
Iscariot sold Christ for thirty pieces of silver; will Your Highness
sell him for 300,000 ducats? Here He is, take Him and sell Him';
upon which the king held fast to his decree."
The book also goes into detail about some of the key pogroms
perpetrated against Jews. Included are tales of attrocities
that will curl your teeth; committed by *CHRISTIANS*!!!
A few times in the book Flannery, a Roman Catholic priest, incredibly
seems to excuse some of the actions of the Church by saying the
Jews were becoming overly abusive of their privileges. These statements
are so thin, however, that they in no way damage the force of
the historical record presented. On the whole, the book appears
to be unbiased, unsparing, and unrelenting in its treatment of
Anti-Semitism. It should be required reading for anyone calling
himself a Christian.
David Brunson
Disciple of Yeshua Ish Nazaret
duke!ucf-cs!usfbobo!brunsondsaker@iuvax.UUCP (07/10/84)
[] While it is certainly the case that many "christian" atrocities were perpetrated by those who were only nominally christian, it is just as certain that many were perpetrated by people who were sincere and devout and earnestly striving to be truly christian. I just know that many christians are going to leap up and say that the fact that christians have committed atrocities does not reflect in any way on the "righteousness" of christianity. In great part, I must agree. BUT an important point is raised when we observe that often christians committed these atrocities believing that they were doing god's will. Presumably, no-one wants to assert that the atrocities were god's will, so let us assume that those christians were wrong in their belief that they were doing god's will. Then we are forced to the conclusion that a christian, be he ever so devout and earnest in his efforts to follow the Lord, can be horribly mistaken in his interpretations of what is god's will. We are forced to conclude that a devout and earnest christian, having prayed for god's guidance on an issue and believing god to have answered him, can yet be hideously in error. If a devout christian can be so wrong in his perceptions of god's will and god's answers to his prayers, then he can also be wrong in his many beliefs that rest on such perceptions. If once a christian admits that he can be totally wrong in his perceptions of god's will and god's answers to his prayers, then what is left of his religious beliefs? It seems to me that most, if not all, of the support to his beliefs has been kicked away. Replies? Daryel Akerlind ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!dsaker
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (07/12/84)
Its a lot like good news-bad news jokes.
The skeptics take the bad news part of the story and say
"See you Christians wiped out Indians, Jews, ...N group"
and "You Christians really screwed this project, Government,
...N entity up."
On the good news side of the story the skeptics excise everything
as not true ( because we don't have reliable enough proof) or
they appropriate for themselves the good news part of the story
that was a direct result of the Judaeo-Christian society they
lived in.
What about the tens of thousands or even 100s of thousands of
Jews that were saved by "christians" in Europe at great risk
to their personal safety. It did happen you know but then
Hitler is held up as a Christian and who the hell is Corrie ten
Boom anyway ?
"Just because we have some lousy sales people does not mean
that the product is no good."
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}
AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga
(404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (07/19/84)
Reply to Daryel Akerlind (it is refreshing to respond to someone with honest questions): > While it is certainly the case that many "christian" atrocities were > perpetrated by those who were only nominally christian, it is just as > certain that many were perpetrated by people who were sincere and devout > and earnestly striving to be truly christian. Could you provide an example? It is possible that some large mistakes (e.g. the Crusades) had "Christians" of both the sincere and the false types, but are there any examples where the sole perpetrators of atrocities were those who believed themselves to be doing God's will? (I'm not saying there were none, I'm just saying I haven't heard of any.) > Then we are forced to the conclusion that a christian, be > he ever so devout and earnest in his efforts to follow the Lord, can be > horribly mistaken in his interpretations of what is god's will. We are > forced to conclude that a devout and earnest christian, having prayed for > god's guidance on an issue and believing god to have answered him, can yet > be hideously in error. True. That is why, in Christianity and many other religions, there is a book provided to give a general idea of God's (or Allah's, or whoever's) nature, whereby what one thinks to be God's will can be tested. I will admit that one snag in this argument is that (as hashed over some time ago already) the Old Testament itself describes a great deal of destruction, in each case preceded by "Then the LORD said unto {Moses,Joshua,...}, 'Attack this kingdom and blow all its people off the face of the earth.'" [Quote from *The Livid Bible*, paraphrased edition, by Jeff Sargent :-)] Yet even the Old Testament, in some of the same books as these attacks are recorded, suggests that God would like for people's usual interactions to be kind and loving; the Old Testament law limited this to the Israelites, while the New Testament extended it to all people (at least I think there were cases in the O.T. where the Israelites were told that these laws applied only to treatment of other Israelites; anyone care to confirm or correct me on that?). Thus, a Christian with a good overall knowledge of his Bible ought to be a bit suspicious of any supposed answer from God that commands him to do something that would be considered an atrocity. > If a devout christian can be so wrong in his perceptions of god's will and > god's answers to his prayers, then he can also be wrong in his many > beliefs that rest on such perceptions. See above. Christianity is not such a totally subjective belief (though neither is it a cold, completely intellectual belief in the Bible). Anyway, a quote which I like (but often lack the courage to apply) is (approximately): "A person who will not dare to be mistaken about the will of God will never come to know God any better." (Dr. Paul Tournier) In other words, for instance, if one is in a situation where several different courses of action (or deliberate inaction) are possible, it is better to pick one and go with it (as long as it stands up to Scripture) than to spend a lot of time worrying about whether it's God's will. I know from experience that sometimes it may initially appear that one has made a tremendous mistake, resulting in great emotional agony to oneself, but later one discovers that that was really the best thing that could have happened, that it corrected some flaw in one in the most effective possible way. If you wish, I will send you private mail describing one instance of this. > If once a christian admits that he can be totally wrong in his perceptions > of god's will and god's answers to his prayers, then what is left of his > religious beliefs? It seems to me that most, if not all, of the support to > his beliefs has been kicked away. Again, this depends on whether you consider belief in the Bible's value to be merely a matter of one's individual perception. I don't consider all the above to be perfect answers, but they are at least attempts. I wish I could come up with a reasonable, compassionate answer to your other recent article, entitled "Punish Non-Belief?"; but I'm having a tough time. One possible answer is given in my paragraph above about the Tournier quote: Try *something*! (Anyone else want to reply to that article, assuming it hasn't expired from your system?) -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|decvax|harpo|ihnp4|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "...got to find my corner of the sky."
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (07/22/84)
> > While it is certainly the case that many "christian" atrocities were > > perpetrated by those who were only nominally christian, it is just as > > certain that many were perpetrated by people who were sincere and devout > > and earnestly striving to be truly christian. > Could you provide an example? It is possible that some large mistakes (e.g. > the Crusades) had "Christians" of both the sincere and the false types, but > are there any examples where the sole perpetrators of atrocities were those > who believed themselves to be doing God's will? (I'm not saying there were > none, I'm just saying I haven't heard of any.) What makes you think that Torquemada et al didn't honestly believe that he was doing god's will? He (they) believed what they were taught to believe, including beliefs about Jews (what they were, what "should" be done with them). > the Old > Testament itself describes a great deal of destruction, in each case preceded > by "Then the LORD said unto {Moses,Joshua,...}, 'Attack this kingdom and blow > all its people off the face of the earth.'" [Quote from *The Livid Bible*, > paraphrased edition, by Jeff Sargent :-)] Where can we get a copy? :-) (Actually, I thought I recalled that line being in the Book of Ubizmo...) [So, Jeff, I laugh at your jokes, I sometimes agree with you, and still you never write in response. What's a mother to do...] -- AT THE TONE PLEASE LEAVE YOUR NAME AND NET ADDRESS. THANK YOU. Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr