rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (07/12/84)
> > The secularists > are unparalleled for absurdity and provide far more material > for mockery than Ernest Angeley or Jerry Falwell ever have. > Maybe the seeming timidity of believers has something to do > with the Christian tradition of *Apologetics*. > > Am I the only one who looks at it like this? !!Oh, no. Ernest and Jerry are right there with you. !!"The secularists" that gave you so many happy moments do not !!make their living representing atheism ("secularism") - !!quite unlike these two gentlemen's relation to Christianity. !!Also, your explanation of the "timidity" would have greatly !!amused a number of people - from that Jew who got burned during !!an auto-da-fe, to that Protestant who got shot by some Catholic. !! !!"Talk a lot, so that they have !! enough things to quote 4000 years from now." !! - God, addressing Solomon. !! !! ------------------- !! Mike Musing Hey Mike, What do you mean that "Secularists...do not make their living representing atheism" ?? Isn't that in the eye of the beholder ?? For instance I would classify the following groups and individuals as Secularists who indeed making their living promoting atheism if you will permit me to be very literal with the word ATHEIST, which means "without God" or A Theos in the Greek: American Atheist Assn (Ms O'Hair, her kids, and probably a few pets) American Communist Party People for the American Way Planned Parenthood Most of "Hollywood" Most of the Record and Tape Industry Playboy Empire Organized Crime NOW Abortionists and their "Pro Choice" Supporters All these groups and many more conduct their affairs at the very least as if God doesn't exist. They are not necessarily shaking their fist at God say like Ms. O'Hair does but they are largely atheistic by my definition. And they definitely promote their point of view that at least God is irrelevant while they present Hedonism or other vacuous ideals as the Supreme Good in the Universe. Just because they don't wear a three piece preachin' suit or a reverse collar doesn't mean they are not sales reps for their beliefs. Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb} AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga (404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (07/13/84)
To Bob Brown... Would you care to back up your rather outrageous statement that some of the groups you listed -- NOW, NARAL, People for the American Way, Planned Parenthood, and a few others -- act as if they deny the existence of G-d? I will grant that they don't agree with your conception of G-d, but neither do Orthodox Jews, Muslims, etc. To put it more personally, who the hell are you to tell me what beliefs are compatible with my view of religion? Many of the groups you listed have several very prominent clerics on their boards, incidentally. --Steve Bellovin
cher@ihuxi.UUCP (Mike Musing) (07/13/84)
> > What do you mean that "Secularists...do not make their living > representing atheism" ?? Isn't that in the eye of the beholder ?? > > For instance I would classify the following groups and individuals > as Secularists who indeed making their living promoting atheism > if you will permit me to be very literal with the word ATHEIST, > which means "without God" or A Theos in the Greek: I did not say that nobody makes their living representing atheism!!! I did say that the people who amused David so much were not representing atheism for the living. Ernest Angeley probably does not look particularly funny when he talks about politics. It is his preaching and healing that look so pathetic to some beholders (and so majestic to others). These are the moments when he acts as God's representative. As Jesse Jackson would say: My words were taken out of context Mike Musing P.S. Does anyone know if Angeley is wearing a wig?
jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (07/15/84)
Bob Brown has lumped together a large number of organizations into a single list of atheists and promoters of atheism: > American Atheist Assn (Ms O'Hair, her kids, and > probably a few pets) > > American Communist Party > > People for the American Way > > Planned Parenthood > > Most of "Hollywood" > > Most of the Record and Tape Industry > > Playboy Empire > > Organized Crime > > NOW > > Abortionists and their "Pro Choice" Supporters I cannot resist the temptations to follow Bob's example. I have compiled a similar list, not for atheists' organizations, but for religionists' groups and organizations: Voodooism Islam Witchcraft Christianity Communism Jewish Religion Hellenic Religion Khumeinism (and so on) From a secularist point of view there is very little difference between the various religions (or some may say superstitions). As a secularist, I have a hard time distinguishing between Zeus, Odin or Mr. Brown's god. I can only view these deities as interesting and amusing creation of the human imagination. The main difference between the various religions - from a secularist perspective - is whether the followers of the respective religions are in the business of imposing their religion on the "non- believers". You may be surprised to find communism in both Bob's atheists' list and my religionists' list. It is true that communists label themselves as atheists. But in reality they are not atheists. Marx and Lenin are their gods. They worship them as fervently as other religionists worship their chosen god. The similarity between communism and other religions does not end with worshiping. Communists and some fundamentalist religionists have a lot more in common. Examples of areas of commonality: - Desire for a stricter authority - Very little tolerance for ideas and lifestyles that deviate from what they define as the norm. - Desire to censor literature and music and other art forms that they feel are out of line. - Try to impose their religion/dogma on others. - They know what is good for you - Attempting to prevent individuals from making personal choices that are out of step with their dogma. -- Yosi Hoshen Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois (312)-979-7321 Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (07/16/84)
Steve,
So What ?!
If you operate your life or your organization as if
God doesn't exist ( according to MY observation)
then you are an atheist according to MY definition.
I was sharing MY opinion. If you think it outrageous or stupid
well of course you are welcome to tell me or when you see my
sign you can avoid the frustration by judicious use of the "n"
key.
Big time clergymen don't cut no ice with me Jim ! (no apology for
the grammar)
Remember, all the Biggies were on the other side against Jesus.
"This IS net.religion, you know"
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}
AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga
(404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784gtaylor@cornell.UUCP (Greg Taylor) (07/17/84)
OOPs...here I find myself trying to qualify Yoshi's posting, while being in the same side of the fence as Jeff Williams, beliefwise. Let's try it this way: Mr. Hoshen was absolutely correct to point out that the good Marxist is more than a bit like the good Christian in the sense that there *is* a connection between their way of looking at the Universe and the way they conduct themselves in that Universe. They *certainly* differ in their particulars (materialism and dialectic, for one), but they are both views of the world that attempt to integrate and bring together theory and action (or praxis and action, to quote one of the theorists). Both are easily lampooned for it as well, of course. Belief does have a way of putting one at risk. But if it doesn't change your life.... There's another subtext argument at work here that I'm surprised that Yoshi didn't jump at (since I've rather faithfully followed his postings in net.religion.jewish)-to wit: If Rich's Rosen's formulation about the secular view of "the Myth of Neutrality" is true ( and I think that it is, for all intents and putposes, a good one), then the offense given by anyone of strong convictions lies in the potential that they will either attempt to "impose" their belief system on others (they would, I suspect, see themselves as making a world in which they can live in good conscience- though that is a might overstated), or that they will withdraw and refuse to "integrate" into a world they see as either aclectic to a fault or actually hostile. Does this sort of "few and many" dispute look familiar to you, Yoshi? Are the *secular Humanists* of the world pretty good at handling the sons of Israel in *neutral* fashion? I'd be interested to explore the Jewish formulation of identity in a world which may be hostile to their aspirations, being, and practice. You're exactly the man to ask, I think. regards, gtaylor ________________________________________________________________________________ If you ask me, I may tell you gtaylor@cornell it's been this way for years Gregory Taylor I play my red guitar.... Theorynet (Theoryknot) ________________________________________________________________________________
jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (07/17/84)
Jeff Williams = } Yosi Hoshen = < }Very seldom will I reply to an article in net.religion. I guess that }the flames and such are a bit much to take. However, in this case, there }were several items in an article by Yosi Hoshen that really angered me. I am sorry to hear that my article has angered you. That was not my intention. My complaints were not against religion, but religious coercion. I was not trying to attack your faith. I was only trying to describe my attitude towards religions from a perspective of a secularist. }First, let me state that my position is a Christian. I believe that the }Bible is the inspired Word of God, and as such it true. That, I guess, }makes me a fundamentalist. Next, I believe that unless a person is born }again with the Spirit, he can not enter into Heaven. All people are born }sinful. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is my personal }Savior. That is as fundamentalist as one can get, I guess. I don't deny your rights for your beliefs. I oppose anti-religious coercion as practiced by the USSR, just as I oppose religious coercion in other parts of the world. }Yosi wrote: }>Communists and some fundamentalist religionists have a lot more in }>common. Examples of areas of commonality: }> }> - desire for a stricter authority }> - very little tolerance for ideas and lifestyles that deviate }> from what they define as the norm. }> - desire to censor literature and music and other art forms }> that they feel are out of line. }> - try to impose their religion/dogma on others. }> - they know what is good for you }> - attempting to prevent individuals from making personal }> - choices that are out of step with their dogma. }Speaking as one who is a fundamentalist Christian, I take a great deal }of offense at what was written. Why do you assume that I specifically attacked Christians fundamentalists. I used the generic term fundamentalists. The fundamentalist term is not only reserved for fundamentalist Christians in the US. The term is also used to describe the fundamentalist Khumeini Muslims of Iran, and Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel. Please note that I used the phrase "some fundamentalist", implying not all. To clarify the issue, I will restate my position, "I oppose the attempts of *some religionist fundamentalists* and communists to impose their religion/dogma on others." The above examples indicate opposition to religious coercion, not to religion. }I hope that I have answered some of the charges leveled at we Bible }thumping fundamentalists. Please, don't lump all fundamentalists with }the worst-case examples of intolerant Christians. Please note my above remarks. Note also that I did not initiate the *lumping* process. Bob Brown was the first one to lump together a large number of organizations as atheists or supporter of atheism. I was trying to point out that a superset of religions could also be constructed. ------------------------ I shall be spending my next four weeks in Israel (where all these religious arguments started). I shall not be able to answer all the flame, but I'll be back. -- Yosi Hoshen Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois (312)-979-7321 Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (07/17/84)
From: rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) Subject: Re: Absurdity Continued Message-ID: <890@akgua.UUCP> Date: Mon, 16-Jul-84 07:59:36 EDT Steve, So What ?! If you operate your life or your organization as if God doesn't exist ( according to MY observation) then you are an atheist according to MY definition. I was sharing MY opinion. If you think it outrageous or stupid well of course you are welcome to tell me or when you see my sign you can avoid the frustration by judicious use of the "n" key. Big time clergymen don't cut no ice with me Jim ! (no apology for the grammar) Remember, all the Biggies were on the other side against Jesus. Can we at least keep our terminology straight? Someone with a different perception of the Deity than you may be a heretic, an apostate, or a heathen. Someone who agrees with your perception but doesn't act it may be a hypocrite, a sinner, or a practitioner of some form of "civil disobedience" (i.e., doing something against the rules deliberately, but willing to accept any consequences). None of the above categories qualify as "atheist" -- one who does not believe in G-d. Please note that in my earlier submission, I did not list several groups you mentioned, because I agree that they espouse atheism -- for example the Comunist Party. I'll even agree that the dreaded secular humanists (as exemplified by the signers of the Humanist Manifesto) are preachers of atheism. But "atheist" is not a perjorative; it's merely a word with a rather precise meaning. So -- call my earlier complaint a semantic quibble. Maybe it should have been in net.nlang rather than net.religion. But if we're going to call each other names, let's at least agree on what we're calling each other.
cfiaime@ihnp4.UUCP (Jeff Williams) (07/23/84)
Very seldom will I reply to an article in net.religion. I guess that the flames and such are a bit much to take. However, in this case, there were several items in an article by Yosi Hoshen that really angered me. First, let me state that my position is a Christian. I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and as such it true. That, I guess, makes me a fundamentalist. Next, I believe that unless a person is born again with the Spirit, he can not enter into Heaven. All people are born sinful. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior. That is as fundamentalist as one can get, I guess. So much for the background. I am stating my beliefs so that the rest of this article can be seen in the light of my beliefs. No flames requested, this is my opinion, which I will share with anyone who honestly wishes to share with me. Yosi wrote: >Communists and some fundamentalist religionists have a lot more in >common. Examples of areas of commonality: > > - desire for a stricter authority > - very little tolerance for ideas and lifestyles that deviate > from what they define as the norm. > - desire to censor literature and music and other art forms > that they feel are out of line. > - try to impose their religion/dogma on others. > - they know what is good for you > - attempting to prevent individuals from making personal > - choices that are out of step with their dogma. Speaking as one who is a fundamentalist Christian, I take a great deal of offense at what was written. 1. Our final authority is God, as revealed in the Bible. Anything not specificly prohibited should probably be permitted. However, many items of modern society were not created at the time of Christ, so our conscience should be our guide. When in doubt, I ask, "Would Christ do x, y, or z?" If I truly believe that Christ would indeed do x, y, or z, then who am I not to do so? I do NOT want the Church, or any person, extending the laws as given in the Bible. 2. I may not understand your lifestyle or ideas, but you are free to believe as you wish. The only part of my lifestyle that I would like for you to adopt is my love of Jesus as my Savior. If you accept that offer, the rest of your lifestyle will conform to God's will for your life. This world is made of many cultures. White, suburban, protestant is just one of countless lifestyles that are pleasing to God. If you are a black, urban Christian, or a rural Mexican Christian, it doesn't matter one bit. 3. Who am I to censor art? If you, as a Christian, are offended by certain art forms, don't expose yourself to them. I cannot change the overt sexuality of modern music, or the expounding of amoral living that some television shows give. I choose not to patronize such art. Again, the question, "How would I feel if Christ were to walk in and see me doing x, y, or z?" Some people are not offended by this art, so I should not impose my wishes on them. 4. I cannot force you to believe what I believe. I can offer you my beliefs, but you are free to reject them. When I am witnessing my faith, I do it with a prayer that God speak through me. It is the Holy Spirit that causes a change in people's hearts, not the writing of Jeff Williams. 5. How can I know what is good for you? If I choose not to drink, smoke, or whatever, that is my choice. If you can honestly say, as a Christian, "I am not ashamed of what I am doing," and it is not specificly forbidden, then who am I to complain. (By the way, I will serve liquor to friends if they wish. I even will take a glass of wine now and again. About once a year.) 6. Are we not free to be sons and daughters of God? How can I prevent you from doing something? Is what you do prohibited by God? Are you harming someone else? Are you showing love to all of those around you? Probably the personal choice that I cannot condone is that of abortion. If a woman asks for my opinion before she has an abortion, I will try to persuade her not to do so. However, if she confides that she has had an abortion, I will not condemn her, because she still is forgiven by God through Christ. Even of the murder of an unborn child. (I have very strong feelings about this, as my wife and I can not have children of our own.) I hope that I have answered some of the charges leveled at we Bible thumping fundamentalists. Please, don't lump all fundamentalists with the worst-case examples of intolerant Christians. Jeff Williams AT&T-Bell Laboratories ihnp4!cfiaime