nowlin@ihu1e.UUCP (Jerry Nowlin) (06/27/84)
This is going to net.misc because I want the opinions of middle of the
road people. From what I've seen of net.religion it consists of fanatics at
one end of the spectrum or the other. I'm interested in their replys too, but
I wonder how Mr. and Ms. average go to church on Sunday morning feel about
these inconsistancies or if they ignore them for their own peace of mind. I
realize that religion and logic don't mix. I hope I get some logical
responses anyway.
I just finished perusing net.religion for the first time. I only gave it
a whirl because I saw an article in net.flame that originated here. I've
avoided this group for a couple of reasons.
1) I've always found discussions on the technical aspects of religion,
like whether this or that translation from the original latin or greek is more
accurate, to be boring and of no practical use. I assumed, only partially
correctly, that there would be a lot of that kind of technical gook in this
group.
2) I tend to start foaming at the mouth, ranting, and raving soon after
discussions turn to the subject of religion. I have definite opinions
stemming from a strong christian background and a gradual but complete "loss
of faith" over the last 10 or 12 years. I don't have the time to spend
ranting or raving so I didn't want to read anything that would get me started.
But, I read and now I would like answers to some questions I have, and
reactions to some of my opinions.
On the bible: I'm one of the first people to admit that the bible (I mean
the christian old and new testaments by bible) is an interesting and
informative book in places. It is also frequently historically accurate. But
a book or any other form of information doesn't have to be non-fiction to
contain some truth. I'm a big science fiction fan. Science fiction has lots
of truth in it. In 2000 years when someone uncovers a copy of "2001: A Space
Odyssey" and finds that they can correlate most of the scientific facts
contained in it with references from other works of the period will they start
looking around for the monolith? This may be a bad analogy since the bible
comes closer to fantasy than science fiction.
On miracles: I want to know whether god still works miracles in this day
and age. When I was little I used to wonder why god would let children be
born with no legs and things like that. I asked my parents, Sunday School
teachers, and preachers. The response I got was always along the lines of
"god has gone back to heaven and doesn't interfere on earth now. He wants us
to make our own decisions free from his direct intervention." That sounds like
the greatest cop out I've ever heard. When a elder almost died of cancer
while I was in high school they held a prayer vigil that went for a couple
days continuously. When he recovered after the doctors said he didn't have
any chance it was heralded as a miracle. When another man died of a heart
attack after a couple days in the hospital and praying didn't do any good they
claimed it was god's will. What about all the miraculous recoveries of people
who have no one to pray for them? What make the recoveries of the ones that
were prayed for special? You can't have it both ways. Either god is
performing miracles or he isn't. If you want to give the credit to god he
ought to have to take the blame too. I've heard all the arguments about how
satan does the nasty stuff. I suppose god just stands around acting like the
3 monkeys while satan's at it? What do you think? That brings me to the
next question.
On christian responsibility: Christians are constantly exhorted to be as
much like christ as they can. God expects us to feed the hungry, cloth the
naked, visit the imprisoned, heal the sick, etc., and generally behave in a
godly manner. You don't have to be a christian to show respect for others and
feel sympathy for and give assistance to people that need it. An individual
can only do so much though. God on the other hand by definition should be
able to see all the misery and suffering in the world, and has the power,
according to the bible, to do something about it. I see no evidence of god
behaving in a godly or christ like manner. The excuse I hear most often for
this lack of intervention is the one I listed above. He doesn't work in those
ways anymore. In other words he is sitting up there in heaven on his butt
watching all this horror go on down here and it's up to us? You don't need
examples from my personal experience to become fed up with god's indifference.
The state of the world in general should be enough to bring a responsible
person with the ability to do something about it up out of their chair. Since
god's still sitting around up there some where and doesn't seem to care about
mankind or this planet in general why should he care about individuals. Who
are christians supposed to model themselves after? A deity who hasn't
bothered to actively take their side for almost 2000 years?
On complacency: What really burns me up is the fact that so many people
accept things that are less that ideal because "it's god's will." There are so
many people that settle for a less than perfect life here on earth because
their true reward will be in heaven. If they would just put forth some effort
they could make life better for themselves and the rest of the world now.
Instead they wait around to die and receive their just deserts. I'm not
talking about getting rich or famous. If it's god's will that a baby be born
with a cleft palate that doesn't mean you can't have it fixed with surgery.
If it's god's will that your house burn down your not going to sit in it or
even just walk outside and watch. You'll call the fire department and maybe
try putting it out yourself. Religion is a safe place to hide from the harsh
realities of the real world. Some people hold their bibles in front of
themselves and their children like a shield against the rest of the world.
These people don't contribute to society. They stifle it's growth and their
own.
On fear: I can vividly remember back in the hot years of the cold war,
laying in bed at night and staring out my window wondering if I'd remembered
to pray to be forgiven for all the things I'd done wrong that day. I was
watching out the window for the flash of the first bomb, but I was scared of
hell not the bomb. I didn't stay in line because of some understanding of
right or wrong but because I was scared of hell. I don't want my kids to go
through that. I try to teach them right for the sake of right. I've sat
through too many sermons where the preacher didn't even mention the carrot
(heaven). He just concentrated on waving the stick (hell). There's enough to
be worried about in this life without carrying that kind of fear around.
I don't know whether god exists or not. I do know that if god isn't
going to do anymore for the world than I've seen in the last 30 years I don't
need his help. If god does exist and I ever get to meet him I expect to spend
more time chewing him out than thanking him for anything and I have a feeling
he could care less.
Jerry Nowlin
ihnp4!ihu1e!nowlinkeith@seismo.UUCP (Keith Bostic) (06/30/84)
I read with interest the article on God being a bad example. I'm not currently supporting any particular religious format, so I suppose I'm as middle-of-the-road as anyone. A general comment rather than a specific point-by-point essay. I guess what bothers me most about the whole article is the judgemental attitude toward God. If God exists, if God is God, I don't think it's reasonable to say: > If god does exist and I ever get to meet him I expect to spend > more time chewing him out than thanking him for anything From the Biblical viewpoint, pride isn't too good a deal; also, there are some fairly specific quotes reflecting that God's "ways" are *not* man's way and that His way is superior. From a layman's viewpoint, the ability to judge God implies that God isn't God. Quite frankly, *by definition*, if God exists, mankind doesn't know anything. Saying that you plan to spend your time with God "chewing him out" seems to be both naive and ridiculous. Somehow it kind of reminds me of my childhood; when I got furious with my parents for not doing what *I* wanted them to do, usually because I just didn't understand/wasn't mature enough to know what was going on. Believe or disbelieve in God; that's a reasonable choice. In the light of your own morality, evaluate the effect that religion has or hasn't had on society. But don't say you have the ability to judge God. That just doesn't make any sense at all. Countin' the woodchucks on the head of a pin, Keith ARPA: keith@seismo UUCP: seismo!keith p.s. To be honest, the *only* Christian experience that really makes sense to me (in light of my *own* morality) is an explicit "God the Father" one. If as the Bible claims, God is really there, and really cares, well, then, it's just like being three; you take your dad's advice blindly -- because you trust it more than your own.
wmartin@brl-tgr.ARPA (Will Martin ) (07/03/84)
Perhaps the problem here is not "God's duty to man" but rather man's interpretation of God's relationship to himself? Substitute "man" for "God" in the original posting, and "ants" for "men", for example. Mankind could do a lot to make life for ants easier, longer, less stressful, etc. We don't. As a matter of fact, in the areas in which we interact, we do the opposite. In the areas where we don't interact (the average ant colony out in the desert or wilderness somewhere), we are indifferent to their actions or fate. We like to think that God cares about us and our actions, but, if He really exists, it seems a lot more likely that His attitude toward us would be much like ours to the ants. The relationships seem sort of equivalent on the "Great Chain of Being", to drag in that concept... Will
brianp@shark.UUCP (Brian Peterson) (07/23/84)
^ From: keith@seismo
^
^ ...; also, there are
^ some fairly specific quotes reflecting that God's "ways" are *not* man's
^ way and that His way is superior. From a layman's viewpoint, the ability
^ to judge God implies that God isn't God.
So how do we KNOW that his ways are superior? WHO says? It can't be humans,
since >God's "ways" are *not* man's way< therefore since they are
different, we are purely and simply unable to think about them.
(Why ever do you think that because something is different that you can't
think about it???) If it is GOD who says his ways are superior, how
do YOU know? We are unable to judge, since his ways are different.
What if he is lying to us? You not only would never know (because you
refuse to think), you never would CARE.
[what if a random person walked up to you and said "live life my way.
It is superior. Do not ask me why, because I am infinitely wise and
powerful, and therefore you can't know. (by the way, can't God try to
explain his ways? If he is so smart, he should be a good teacher)
Would you trust this person? Devote your life to him (her)?
If not, why not? What is the difference between this man and whatever it
is in your religion that let's you trust your religion????? ]
^ Quite frankly, *by definition*, if God exists, mankind doesn't know anything.
I know my name, how to tie my shoes, what 2+2 equals, etc. Therefore,
God does not exist. *by definition* ;->
^ Saying that you plan to spend your time with God "chewing him out" seems
^ to be both naive and ridiculous.
No, it doesn't. Some people are put under the impression that God is
supposed to be good and loving, and then the world that they see contradicts
that impression. Maybe they should be chewing out the earthly religions that
fed them those false impressions, but they are justified in their anger.
^ Somehow it kind of reminds me of my
^ childhood; when I got furious with my parents for not doing what *I* wanted
^ them to do, usually because I just didn't understand/wasn't mature enough
^ to know what was going on.
...
^ If as the Bible claims, God is really there,
^ and really cares, well, then, it's just like being three; you
^ take your dad's advice blindly -- because you trust it more than
^ your own.
Doesn't look like YOU did. Do kids trust their parents, or not?
I'd say "sometimes". The key thing, though, is what is the difference
between God and Daddy? God doesn't physically manifest himself to say
"no, you can't play in the street" whereas a father will carry his little
kid in off the street (we hope :-). Is this enough difference?
Why do people trust this "god" notion?
Brian Peterson {ucbvax, ihnp4, } !tektronix!shark!brianpdsaker@iuvax.UUCP (07/23/84)
[] Reply to Brian Peterson - Apart from a few minor quibbles about the precise statement of something, I agree heartily with your article. RIGHT ON!! Looking at the suffering in the world -- physical and mental suffering -- I feel a tremendous need for an "explanation" of WHY THIS IS HAPPENING. (What I mean here is that I want to understand the necessity of this suffering for an end that fully justifies the suffering. I can't imagine that there is such an end, but I am not ruling out its possibility.) Maybe there is no "explanation". Maybe the "explanation" is not good enough. But if there is a god out there, I sure want to hear his "explanation". I don't just want it; I need it. My being cries out for it. Daryel Akerlind ...ihnp4!inuxc!iuvax!dsaker
greggt@ncoast.UUCP (Gregg Thompson) (07/28/84)
If everyone would post to the
right newsgroups we wouldn't have so
much JUNK on the system. The next time
you post something think about where
you are going to post it.
---------------------------------------
This flame was not meant to
any one in particular but to all.
Thank you.
--
Gregg Thompson
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{ucbvax}!decvax!microsoft!trsvax!sneaky!greggt
{decvax}!ucbvax!dual!proper!greggt
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