ken@qantel.UUCP (Ken Nichols) (08/09/84)
ME> Of course reading the Bible 52 times in a year would be worthless to you. ME> Your mind is not going to understand it, because you are spiritually blind. > I can't figure out from your message whether you're really serious or >not. The inability to understand the "word of god" before you believe in god >seems to be a kind of catch 22. You can't understand till you believe. You >can't believe till you understand. You expect people to figure out god >without reading the bible? How are they supposed to reach this salvation and >get their holy spirit? You can't be serious. O.K. So, maybe I got a little carried away. To much flame and not enough brain. Of course the common man can understand a small portion of the Bible. At least enough to be saved. But the person I was replying to did not see what value the Bible had because he got nothing more out of it. The point I was trying to get across was that only the Spirit can reveal the deeper mysteries (ie. beyond salvation) of the Bible to man. ME> God does not reveal the truths of the Bible to unbelievers, that would be ME> throwing "Pearls before the Swine" as it says in Mathew. Only the ME> Holy Spirit given at salvation will cause you to understand the Bible. With ME> this understanding you could read it 522,000,000 times and still find ME> something you've never seen before. > I love that "pearls before the swine" stuff. Anyone who doesn't believe >as you do is a pig? Is it any wonder there are religious wars. Not all >christians are like you but most have a real blind spot. There are lots of >reasons I'm no longer a christian but the "holier than thou" attitude most >*professed* christians have is one of the biggies. If I were still a >christian I wouldn't want a spiritual bigot like you defending my belief. >Jerry Hey, I didn't write it, Jesus said it. As for you being a pig, the statement is not meant to be taken literaly. It's figurative. Just as you don't give something of priceless worth to someone who does not care to know its value, so God does not reveal the priceless treasures of his Word to someone who doesn't believe the simple truths of the Bible. As to you no longer being a Christian, I'm afraid I'll have to offend you by saying that either you still are a Christian, but are out of fellowship with God, or you never were a Christian in the first place. Once you have excepted the free gift of God in the form of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross you are saved once for all. You can't just drop God completely out of your life if you are really saved. I agree that a "holier than thou" attitude is a problem that a lot of Christians have (who said I was perfect). My statement, however, was not a personal attack on anyone, I was just quoting the Bible and letting the Spirit lead. On the other hand I am sort of a bigot because I believe that anyone who does not believe the fundamentals of the Christian faith (mostly concerning Jesus Christ) will perish in Hell. But then that wasn't my idea either, it was God's. A bigot for Jesus, "...holding forth the Ken N. word of life..." ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken Phil 2:16 -------
ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (08/11/84)
-- >> I agree that a "holier than thou" attitude is a problem that a lot of >> Christians have (who said I was perfect). My statement, however, was >> not a personal attack on anyone, I was just quoting the Bible and >> letting the Spirit lead. On the other hand I am sort of a bigot >> because I believe that anyone who does not believe the fundamentals >> of the Christian faith (mostly concerning Jesus Christ) will perish >> in Hell. But then that wasn't my idea either, it was God's. >> A bigot for Jesus, >> Ken N. Oh, but it is *YOUR* idea, in that *YOU* are responsible for the actions *YOU* take on account of it. After all, a similar spirit led people like you to round up and burn people like me. Hey, why not? I mean, I'm going to burn sooner or later, right? Well, I won't change your mind, I know, but I won't go gracefully either. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 10 Aug 84 [23 Thermidor An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7261 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***
ahearn@convex.UUCP (08/11/84)
#R:qantel:-17900:convex:45700016:000:1 convex!ahearn Aug 11 10:58:00 1984
ahearn@convex.UUCP (08/11/84)
#N:convex:45700017:000:1093
convex!ahearn Aug 11 11:23:00 1984
Oh great, the Spirit leads us to bigotry... what next? Ken, what
you say is so far out of line with the *spirit* of the New Testament
that I have to assume that *you've* fallen out of fellowship with
God.
It appears to to me that Jesus lived and died trying to blow people out
of their bigoted little universes. It also appears to me that you can make
an excellent case that Jesus came to "save" all mankind. Go back and read
the Gospel of John, for crying out loud. (And then read Tolstoy, John of
the Cross, Augustine, Anselm, Theresa of Avila, Thomas Merton).
Sometimes this notesfile brings startling clarity to Nietzsche's assertion
that Christianity is the religion of slaves and fools.
Please, don't try to use your horrific **concept** of God to try justify
your own closed mind. Or if you do, make sure to claim your proper lineage
with other great defenders of the faith--Torquemada, the Borgias, Cromwell,
Khoemeini.
Joe Ahearn
{allegra, ihnp4, uiucds, ctvax}!convex!ahearn
--------------------------------------------------------
"...if this isn't a joke, he's really sick..."rjb@akgua.UUCP (08/13/84)
Ken,
we've been down this road before.
Every time a Christian states his/her Theological position
forcefully a certain fearful segment of the Jewish community
breaks into paranoia. If you are a U.S. or Canadian citizen
don't be fearful just be diligent. Personally holding or
practicing certain Christian beliefs is not automatically
a precursor for the kind of illogical thought train you
propose.
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}
AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga
(404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (08/14/84)
Christian belief may not be a sufficient condition for the burning of
heretics, and other acts of intolerance, but in the US and Canada it
is a necessary condition. "Mandates" of some sort are required for all
heinous crimes, and all criminals claim one of two justifications:
(1) "It is the natural order of things."
(2) "God commanded it."
Examples of the first include Nazis and sane murderers. Examples of
the second include most Popes (note that I did not say all) and insane
murderers.
Not all Christians are religiously intolerant (in fact, the vast
majority aren't), but nearly all religiously intolerant Americans
are Christians. (Apologies to Dean Acheson)
David Rubin
{allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!davidab3@pucc-h (Rich Kulawiec) (08/14/84)
Bravo!!! It's about time that those who claim deific justification
for their cruel words and actions, and their blindness, realized
just whose company they're in.
The Inquisition is still with us; it's just gotten more subtle.
--
---Rsk
UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs } !pur-ee!rsk
{ decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk
I like to drink and dance all night,
Comes to a fix, not afraid to fight,
You got that, right?gulley@stolaf.UUCP (William Gulley) (08/16/84)
<Why, but what big mandibles you ha- >
OHHHH crud, not the old refrain of "Oh, why are Christians so HOLIER-
THAN-THOU" again. .
"Holier-than-thou" is a term that can be applied to any person that
has the conviction to speak like they actually know what they're
saying, *and* actually have a positive connotation, but unforunately
the mere fact of where those convictions are placed turns this normally
very respectable person into the dreaded "HOLIER-THAN-THOU CHRISTIAN!!"
(To be said in your best Karloff)
I realize that it is natural for people with conviction to have detractors.
(Especially among those with a lack of it) I also realize that a subjective
term like "holier-than-thou" can be qualified in many ways; for example, ". .by
"holier-than-thou Christians", I just meant those Christians who try to
shove their beliefs down my throat. ." But since these people would most
likely be just as "holier-than-thou" in any other belief system, and since
there are many Christians who don't subscribe to this qualification, would
it be to much to ask that "holier-than-thou" and "Christian" be separated?
"Holier-than-thou" is the only part that speaks about the person itself,
a sideshot against a belief system that they may or may not conform to is
superfluous.
____
The Essential William Gulley {!inhp4 || !decvax} !stolaf!gulleyab3@pucc-h (Rich Kulawiec) (08/16/84)
No, it wouldn't be a lot to ask, except that, in this country,
the grouping of "holier-than-thou" and "Christian" together seems
quite apt.
--
---Rsk
UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs } !pur-ee!rsk
{ decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk
I like to drink and dance all night,
Comes to a fix, not afraid to fight,
You got that, right?rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (08/16/84)
Gee David, I just ran up on you in net.politics
being paranoid about Uncle Ronald and now here
you are comparing utterances of insane murderers with
the words of "most Popes". BTW I'm not a Roman Catholic
but what is it you were saying about most religious bigots
being Christians Mr. Rubin......?
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}
AT&T Technologies, Inc.............. Norcross, Ga
(404) 447-3784 ... Cornet 583-3784david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (08/18/84)
Goodness, Mr. Brown are you that unaware of the way the Church has
dealt with heretics, Jews, and such? Is it religious bigotry to mention
a bit of colorful history? Is it anti-Catholic to condemn those Popes
who condoned and even organized such persecution?
I reject your implicit charge of hypocrisy on my part; I have no
desire to dictate or modify anyone's personal beliefs. My remarks were
not directed at Christianity in general, but rather against some
individual Christians. Certainly, I can hold the opinion that Popes of
the, e.g. the Middle Ages, were generally bigots and certainly not
righteous without also holding the opinion that all Christians are
such.
Prejudice is the PREjudging of a person for whatever reason; I have
formed my opinion of these Popes AFTER the fact.
David Rubin
{allegra|astrovax|princeton}!fisher!david