aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (08/15/84)
> It's about time that those who claim deific justification > for their cruel words and actions, and their blindness, realized > just whose company they're in. (the company referred to being Torquemada et al.) This one I can reservedly agree with, though I doubt that the motivations for all people who come across as cruel with a religious coloring are the same; e.g. some did it continually for years (the Inquisitors), while others do it sporadically (myself). I do it at times when I'm feeling generally rotten and confused about my relationship to God and unsure what He has in mind for me; at such times I may seize onto the false security of considering myself better than others and heaping contempt onto those others. Now, I'm not sure why the inquisitors of old, and the Moral Majoritarians of today, come on so strong all the time; I don't know about the Inquisitors, since I'm not living in Spain centuries ago; I have a hypothesis that the MM'ers are indeed looking for security in the wrong place -- temporal power and a predictable world. Alas, the New Testament indicates that this is not at all the way to security. If one looks to the Lord for security, one is enabled to take what look like ridiculous risks, as the early disciples did, knowing that one is never ultimately rejected; in other words, one is enabled to be really alive. (I admit that I rarely manage to pull this off in my own life; but now and then there are moments of joy and glory; I hope to see these increased.) > let me tell you something: if the god you > speak of comes back, I for one will start looking for sturdy trees > and good rope again; he's got a lot to answer for. Presumably this was in response to the article on "O My God", by The Police, in which someone stated that if God prevented all suffering, that would obviate the free will of humans (not to mention angelic and demonic beings). But why blame God for allowing free will? Rather, blame Satan and the other demons, not to mention multitudes of uncaring, self-centered humans (I can say this, since I'm one of them), whose sins of commission and/or omission -- i.e. whose abuse of their free will -- are responsible for the suffering. Anyway, why waste time fixing blame? If there is suffering you don't like to see, you can always do something about it. God often prefers to use people to help other people for the benefit of both the helped (obviously) and the helpers, since it gives the helpers an opportunity to develop the loving, giving, generous character which is so strongly advocated in the New Testament, especially in Jesus's sermons. -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "We can build a beautiful city, yes we can, yes we can...."
anthro@ut-ngp.UUCP (Michael Fischer) (08/23/84)
:: I am not a serious advocate of the "how come..." theory, but will point out that little of the suffering of man has anything to do with man (though I agree that any is too much). Far more people have died of disease, hunger, accidents, etc. than any people inflicted harm. Ditto for pain. Until this century, a perfectably acceptable life span was 50 years in the "civilized" world (true today for the third world), and throughout most of human existance, 30 to 40 years was very reasonable/typical. Until this century infant mortality ranged from 30 to 50 percent and up (also true today in the third world). Free will has little to do with these deaths, and if they are to provide do-gooders something to do, they should get doing, because they are not keeping their part up. I would like to add an unrelated (I think) note. I think that the recent stand that was made by the R. admin. on population control is unfortuate, and deserves the support on no one in our country. It is not reasonable for us to sit here in our relatively deserted country putting stumbling blocks before people who are, or will be in the near future, struggling for their very existance. To relate this unrelated note: where is the free will when we try to run their show. It is not just a simple case of "donations", but can spread to policy because we also control the debts of these countries. It would be wise to be cautious in our application of power from these debts, lest we suffer the same fate in the future when our foreign debt is sufficent to allow others to control us. Michael Fischer anthro@utngp
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (08/24/84)
From Mark McWiggins (uw-beaver!teltone!tikal!mark): > A point I've often wondered about: wouldn't a Serious God make it a > little clearer about what was the One True Way? Clarity is in the eye of the beholder. Jesus is recorded to have said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father except by Me." Also, Christianity is unique among major world religions in that its Founder claimed not to be just a prophet or an enlightened one, but made statements implying His equality with God -- not to mention the little detail that He was raised from the dead, something I don't think one can say about Mohammed, Buddha, et al. > Why does God allow "Satan and the other demons" to muck things up so? > Certainly our free will is capable enough of getting us into trouble on > our own, if that is the idea? Apparently God intended all His creations, including angels, to have free will. Angels, judging by the Bible at least, were intended to be ministering spirits; but some of them chose to use their power for their own purposes, and thus became demons. While this undoubtedly makes things more difficult for us, God is aware of our temptations (Jesus was tempted in all respects just as we are, yet without sin), and He will provide a way out, no matter how virulent the activities of the Enemy -- provided we choose to take that way out; we are indeed perfectly capable of getting into/staying in trouble on our own steam. But we don't have to. -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq [the man with the cornrowed chest hair :-)]
mark@teltone.UUCP (Mark McWiggins) (08/24/84)
> It's about time that those who claim deific justification > for their cruel words and actions, and their blindness, realized > just whose company they're in. (the company referred to being Torquemada et al.) > This one I can reservedly agree with, though I doubt that the motivations for > all people who come across as cruel with a religious coloring are the same; > e.g. some did it continually for years (the Inquisitors), while others do it > sporadically (myself).I do it at times when I'm feeling generally rotten and > confused about my relationship to God and unsure what He has in mind for me; Apparently you are to figure it out for yourself. A point I've often wondered about: wouldn't a Serious God make it a little clearer about what was the One True Way? >> let me tell you something: if the god you >> speak of comes back, I for one will start looking for sturdy trees >> and good rope again; he's got a lot to answer for. > Presumably this was in response to the article on "O My God", by The Police, > in which someone stated that if God prevented all suffering, that would > obviate the free will of humans (not to mention angelic and demonic beings). > But why blame God for allowing free will? Rather, blame Satan and the other > demons, not to mention multitudes of uncaring, self-centered humans (I can say > this, since I'm one of them), whose sins of commission and/or omission -- i.e. > whose abuse of their free will -- are responsible for the suffering... Why does God allow "Satan and the other demons" to muck things up so? Certainly our free will is capable enough of getting us into trouble on our own, if that is the idea? > Anyway, why waste time fixing blame? If there is suffering you don't like > to see, you can always do something about it... Right on. If you're waiting for God, it's going to be a long wait. -- ---------------- ....uw-beaver!teltone!tikal!mark