dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (09/06/84)
Ken Perlow made the statement that sinners are intrinsically more interesting than saints. I asked why. > [Ken Perlow] > I guess I'd better speak up then. Christians do not have a lock on > the concept of sainthood. And I thought we were all supposed to be > sinners in the eyes of God, well your God, anyway. That's right. And that means me, too. But did Christ die so that we would *remain* sinners, or does He want us to die to the world and ourselves and be raised as new creatures (such as, for example, saints)? Regarding the lock: As Christ said He was the only way to God, He evidently would hold that His people *do* have a lock on sainthood. > You don't have to be a Christian to want to live an exemplary life, > nor to feel you are not doing it as well as you could. It's the > trying and failing--irrespective of religious particulars--that's > interesting. First sentence: agreed. Second sentence: it's also nice to try, and succeed. But we don't succeed in our own strength (God's strength is shown through our weakness). The Holy Spirit empowers the saint to live a holy life. Note that I'm not trying to imply that I'm completely satisfied and smug about how righteous I am. I come across like it, I guess. Any saintliness in me is God's doing. Any sin in me is my own fault, and my own responsibility. > Is that clear? If not, please realize that we do not share the > same taxonomy of sin. I suppose I should have said "sinners by > their own definition are more interesting...", but as you see, > it doesn't scan as well. It also doesn't answer the question much. If it's just a matter of definition, why did you bother to say it? Specifically, in Jeff's case, he is a Christian, so your definition wouldn't apply to him, therefore directing the comment to him wouldn't help him much? > As for your question, "What's so exciting about sin?", the answer's > the same as the price of the yacht: "If you have to ask, you can't > afford it." Not an answer, Ken. I've lived a life of sin, so I know what it's all about. And it isn't interesting at all compared to a life of service to Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Not at all. Which is why I asked why you say so. I'm still asking. -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage forever: for they are the rejoicing of my heart. Psalm 119:111
dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (09/07/84)
I came across this whilst reading, last night. Thought it
might be appropriate to the discussion of how interesting sin is.
"'Nothing is so beautiful and wonderful, nothing is so continually
fresh and surprising, so full of sweet and perpetual ecstasy as
the good,' Simone Weil writes. 'No desert is so dreary, monotonous
and boring as evil.' True; but as she goes on to point out, with
fantasy it is the other way round - 'Fictional good is boring and <-
flat, while fictional evil is varied and intriguing, attractive, <-
profound, and full of charm.' Alas, so much of my life has been <-
spent pursuing this fictional good, and forgetful of the other,
the real good, that is ever inspiring, ever renewed, making us,
again to quote Simone Weil, 'grow wings to overcome gravity.'"
Malcolm Muggeridge. "The Infernal Grove. Chronicles of Wasted Time:
Number 2."
--
Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois
Thy testimonies have I taken as an heritage forever: for they
are the rejoicing of my heart.
Psalm 119:111ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (09/10/84)
-- [Paul DuBois] >> Ken Perlow made the statement that sinners are intrinsically >> more interesting than saints. I asked why. [I said, & Paul quoted] > I guess I'd better speak up then. Christians do not have a lock on > the concept of sainthood. And I thought we were all supposed to be > sinners in the eyes of God, well your God, anyway. [Paul DuBois comments] >> That's right. And that means me, too. But did Christ die so >> that we would *remain* sinners, or does He want us to die to >> the world and ourselves and be raised as new creatures (such as, >> for example, saints)? Regarding the lock: As Christ said He >> was the only way to God, He evidently would hold that His >> people *do* have a lock on sainthood. That was his problem, and I guess yours too. Other messiahs have claimed to know other paths to true enlightenment. Those who were not so intolerant as to claim a lock on the truth should not have it held against them. And those messiahs who *WERE* so intolerant, since their belief sets barely intersect, present the all-too-eager to believe with a most gruesome Hobson's choice. [I said, & Paul quoted] > You don't have to be a Christian to want to live an exemplary life, > nor to feel you are not doing it as well as you could. It's the > trying and failing--irrespective of religious particulars--that's > interesting. [Paul DuBois comments] >> First sentence: agreed. Second sentence: it's also nice to try, >> and succeed. But we don't succeed in our own strength (God's >> strength is shown through our weakness). The Holy Spirit >> empowers the saint to live a holy life. Note that I'm not trying >> to imply that I'm completely satisfied and smug about how righteous >> I am. I come across like it, I guess. Any saintliness in me is >> God's doing. Any sin in me is my own fault, and my own >> responsibility. Hey, don't tell me what I find interesting! I am fascinated by people who adopt utopian, perfectionist standards, who try their hardest to live up to those standards but often hold them because they know their entire lives will be devoted to quest, not attainment. If *THE* true way is all cookbook, I'm not impressed--it's boring. But that's just my opinion. Forgive *MY* smugness if I set higher standards than your bible does. [I said, & Paul quoted] > As for your question, "What's so exciting about sin?", the answer's > the same as the price of the yacht: "If you have to ask, you can't > afford it." [Paul comments] >> Not an answer, Ken. I've lived a life of sin, so I know what >> it's all about. And it isn't interesting at all compared to >> a life of service to Father/Son/Holy Spirit. Not at all. >> Which is why I asked why you say so. I'm still asking. Why? Surely you remember what motivated you in those lurid times. But whatsamatter? No sense of humor? Look Paul, I'm glad you are happy now--so few people are. I am too, and fortunately for me, I don't have to justify my life to you (nor you to me). The exercise would not be productive. As for the excitement of sin (however defined), hey, you just admitted it yourself--you couldn't afford it! -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 10 Sep 84 [24 Fructidor An CXCII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!ihuxq!ken *** ***