gulley@stolaf.UUCP (William T. Gulley) (09/16/84)
> I thought that the Christian concept of God was that of a >loving, forgiving God. If this is so, then I see *no* reason why >Born-Again POSSLQ's, or gays in seminaries should be denied the >possibility of participation in a church activity or community. If God >feels that these people are sinners of the worst kind, then he will >judge appropriately. This seems to be a personal matter between each >individual and his/her God. The Christian concept of God is precisely that, loving and forgiving even beyond what we sometimes expect, or want. And as God and Creator, He has a pretty good idea on what he built the human model for, and what not for. In the Bible, I am told by a person who knew Him (namely the Apostle Paul) much better than I that homosexuality is not in the blueprints for the human model. As a Christian, my qualms with those people are not so much whether they have the right to form their church or not, but whether they have the right to undermine my belief system by calling it Christian. > As for the wife-beater and the child abuser, there is a >very simple solution. The congregation needn't be involved here; >the police and court systems do an adequate job. If they're doing such an adequate job, why is wife- and child-beating still so rampant? (My answer: They're largely un-policable.) Their fellow members in the congregation would know more about the person, and therefore be more in a position to help, than some anonymous policeman. (However, I'm sure that there are cases to the contrary, also.) > Perhaps, if Christians were more like their God, there wouldn't >be quite so much persecution and anguish in this world. >Henry C. Mensch | Purdue University Computing Center I very much agree. But of the two groups, non-Christian and Christian, it seems like a safe bet to say that there is a much higher percentage of those in the Christian camp *trying* to be, than in the other. (But then, there's where the loving, forgiving God comes in again. .) ----- The Essential William Gulley {!inhp4 || !decvax} !stolaf!gulley
seifert@ihuxl.UUCP (D.A. Seifert) (09/18/84)
> I can also remember when a new family from California moved to town and > their kids came to the sunday evening service wearing shorts and no shoes. > After the service their mother was taken aside quietly and told not to let > them come back unless they dressed appropriately. > Jerry Nowlin *REAL* Churches don't care what you wear to service. They care that you are there, and are glad to see you. -- _____ /_____\ "Sink the Lousia?" /_______\ |___| Snoopy ____|___|_____ ihnp4!ihuxl!seifert
hawk@oliven.UUCP (Rick) (09/19/84)
>I can also remember when a new family from California moved to town and >their kids came to the sunday evening service wearing shorts and no shoes. >After the service their mother was taken aside quietly and told not to let >them come back unless they dressed appropriately. Mac Davis has a song (I forget the title) in which he, with his long hair and jeans, is escorted out of the church by the folks in church. As he's talking to the Lord afterwards, he asks, "Didn't you have long hair in that picture above the altar?" rick -- [hplabs|zehntel|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix]!oliveb!oliven!hawk
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (09/19/84)
In practice the various protestant denominations differ greatly in their treatment of"sinners". I know that the Presbyterian church I attended as a child expelled a number of people (it is now 24 years old); a group of people who were (sorry, but its the accurate term) heretics, and the participants in a particularly sordid and public bit of adultery. As I understand it, these are the only real grounds for expulsion: heresy or flagrant and defiant sin. It is a policy I feel comfortable with, as it allows for the inevitable waywardness of people. On the other hand, the Episcopal Church (and the Anglicans worldwide) show an incredible amount of tolerance for almost anything. Well, maybe not TOO incredible. There is lots of public dissent on almost any topic you care to mention; without a LOT of tolerance, the church would just fly apart. As protestants go, interestingly, the Episcopalians are relatively schism-free. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (09/19/84)
Greg and others,
Why don't you look around and find a church that
doesn't care about the wrapping on the package.
They do exist because I've been a member of one
for over four years.
Church is for worship and praise and ministry and
joy and ....etc,etc.
It ain't the Easter Parade.
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}cfiaime@ihnp4.UUCP (Jeff Williams) (09/20/84)
When speaking of church discipline, everyone so far has talked of "dress codes," and "undesirable people." In the congregation where I am an elder (Missouri Synod Lutheran), you can see dress from coats and ties to blue jeans. But, this is not concerning disipline, this concerns tolerence. Church disipline concerns the unrepentent sinner. Christ speaks of this in Matthew 17:15 (NIV) - "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But, if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." From this passage, we get both the excommunication process, and the "Office of the Keys and Confession." The one problem in applying this procedure is that of determining the "unrepentent sinner." The only criteria that you can use to judge unrepentence is that of "repeat offenders." If I am really repentent, and am truely sorry for sinning, I will do my best not to sin like that in the future. If I can be shown to attempt not to repeat the sin, but "back-slide," I am still repentent. Several months ago, "Leadership" magazine had an article concerning the excommunication of a church member because of adultry. (Actually, two members of the congregation were involved, and both were treated according to Matthew 17.) Church leaders are very reluctent to use this procedure simply because we can never be SURE of what is in a person's heart. Jeff Williams AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!cfiaime
karl@osu-dbs.UUCP (Karl Kleinpaste) (09/22/84)
---------- >From: cfiaime@ihnp4.UUCP (Jeff Williams) > >When speaking of church discipline, everyone so far has >talked of "dress codes," and "undesirable people." In >the congregation where I am an elder (Missouri Synod Lutheran), >you can see dress from coats and ties to blue jeans. But, >this is not concerning disipline, this concerns tolerence. >... >From [Matthew 17], we get both the excommunication process, >and the "Office of the Keys and Confession." The one problem >in applying this procedure is that of determining the "unrepentent >sinner." The only criteria that you can use to judge unrepentence >is that of "repeat offenders." If I am really repentent, and am >truely sorry for sinning, I will do my best not to sin like that >in the future. If I can be shown to attempt not to repeat the sin, >but "back-slide," I am still repentent. > >Several months ago, "Leadership" magazine had an article concerning >the excommunication of a church member because of adultry. (Actually, >two members of the congregation were involved, and both were treated >according to Matthew 17.) Church leaders are very reluctent to use >this procedure simply because we can never be SURE of what is in a >person's heart. --------- Jeff makes a very good point here. The question of a dress code is a common problem which churches have, but it is not as important as this. My fellowship has had to deal with this problem to a certain degree as well. It is an extremely difficult question. The problem is of paramount importance in the life of a church when a repeatedly-failing Christian begins to affect negatively other Christians in the church. One cannot simply stand aside and let the problem continue, dragging everyone else down with the first person. When someone does something which is blatantly against church doctrine, doesn't consider him/herself to have done anything wrong, and therefore effectively encourages others to do the same, a church must not let that one individual destroy the whole church. Those who question whether or not we should do this generally point out the tolerance which Christ taught, but they usually forget that Christ also cleared the temple with a whip on one occasion. Without a doubt, such decisions are not made arbitrarily, but sometimes they are not made at all, to the detriment of the church. -- Karl Kleinpaste @ Bell Labs, Columbus 614/860-5107 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!cbrma!kk @ Ohio State University 614/891-5058 cbosgd!osu-dbs!karl karl.Ohio-State@Rand-Relay
dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (09/24/84)
> > I can also remember when a new family from California moved to town and > > their kids came to the sunday evening service wearing shorts and no shoes. > > After the service their mother was taken aside quietly and told not to let > > them come back unless they dressed appropriately. > > > Jerry Nowlin > > [Snoopy] > *REAL* Churches don't care what you wear to service. They care > that you are there, and are glad to see you. They might care if you wore a t-shirt I saw once. It said, "Fuck the Church!!" -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois "Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight." Psalm 119:35
mat@hou4b.UUCP (Mark Terribile) (09/24/84)
>> I can also remember when a new family from California moved to town and >> their kids came to the sunday evening service wearing shorts and no shoes. >> After the service their mother was taken aside quietly and told not to let >> them come back unless they dressed appropriately. >> Jerry Nowlin >I could never understand (and still don't) where this idea of being dressed >appropriately for church comes from. When I go to church, I'm there to >worship, not look pretty. How I would *love* to go to church in jeans, >T-shirt and sneakers (but I don't because like the kids above, I'd probably >get "quietly taken aside"). Hmm. The tolerance of churches? Try dropping by a Catholic church for Sunday or Saturday evening Mass. You'll see lots of folks who aren't well dressed. The folks who go to early Masses tend to be more formal about it, because they are visibly making the Mass the center of their day. Why dress? Well, for one thing it is a token of respect and dignity. If you were told that you had an interview with Christ Jesus, how would you prepare? You probably wouldn't try to impress Him with your clothing, but you would wear clothing that indicated your respect for Him, wouldn't you? Well, what is attending a worship service about? -- from Mole End Mark Terribile (scrape .. dig ) hou4b!mat ,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.
ag5@pucc-i (Henry C. Mensch) (09/25/84)
<<abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz ... ran out of creative things to put here>>
\
What to say. . . I really don't think that God (whomever he/she
might be) is worrying a hell of a lot about what we wear to that building
to be preached at for an hour or so. I would hope that billions of more
important things matter more.
But then, I'm probably wrong, huh?
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Henry C. Mensch | Purdue University Computing Center
{decvax|ucbvax|sequent|icalqa|inuxc|uiucdcs|ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-i!ag5
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"Ignorance is bliss, but its revelation is not."jnelson@trwrba.UUCP (John T. Nelson) (09/28/84)
Subject: Re: Church Discipline Why dress? Well, for one thing it is a token of respect and dignity. If you were told that you had an interview with Christ Jesus, how would you prepare? You probably wouldn't try to impress Him with your clothing, but you would wear clothing that indicated your respect for Him, wouldn't you? I would then wear clothing that had meaning to me and him. If that means a certain T-shirt or special pair of ceremonial jeans well than fine. I doubt he wants us to conform to what OTHER people think is a good way to dress. Indications of respect are personal and not to be flaunted before others as the tax collectors do. - John
nlt@duke.UUCP (N. L. Tinkham) (09/28/84)
Mark Terribile, on "dressing up" for church: > Why dress? Well, for one thing it is a token of respect and dignity. If > you were told that you had an interview with Christ Jesus, how would you > prepare? You probably wouldn't try to impress Him with your clothing, but > you would wear clothing that indicated your respect for Him, wouldn't you? > > Well, what is attending a worship service about? Would I dress up for an interview with Christ Jesus? I wonder... There's a certain logic to it: I would dress up to meet the President, or the Prince of Wales, or the Pope, and Christ is certainly more important -- higher in status, if you wish -- than these dignitaries. Yet -- it is different, different because Christ is not only "above" but also "within" us, different because of the intimacy of what we do in worship. Yes, we approach in awe and reverence, but we approach also the one who knows us better than we know ourselves, as the saying goes; we approach the one before whom all pretence is useless. I suspect that, except for the sake of ceremony, style of dress is rather irrelevant in worship. How do we dress for private prayer? Isn't that "an interview with Christ Jesus", after a fashion? It never occurs to me that I ought to dress up to pray. I generally wear whatever I already happen to have on. Unless, of course, someone else is watching me. And I am watching them. N. L. Tinkham duke!nlt