aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (09/22/84)
>> = Sargent > = Kulawiec >> Don't you like the idea of transformed lives? > Well, I don't know, since I'm not sure what a "transformed life" is > supposed to be. It's what one sees when a person who is really messed up comes to Christ, and his life gets straightened out. (In some cases this is more gradual than others, mine for instance.) > I certainly don't like (my perception of) Paul's > (and possibly your) heaven/afterlife. You did not describe your perception of heaven. I perceive it as, above all else, incredibly (to us on earth) joyful. > I don't like the idea that some > bozo god-being is going to send some of us to eternal bliss, and some > of us to eternal torment. That's a really stupid way to run a universe. You still have your choice as to where you end up. What's stupid about that? Anyway, C.S. Lewis has speculated that Hell might actually be "nothing but yourself for all eternity." > When the day comes that I die, and find myself standing before some cosmic > entity in judgement, I hope to be able to deliver my complaint(s) in person. Good luck...Paul [the apostle, not DuBois] predicts that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. > We [Kulawiec et al.] bother [living] because we see things worth doing HERE, > NOW. Rather than wasting our time trying to get folks to believe in the > hereafter, or fighting wars over whether our vision of afterlife is right, > or the other folks', or pouring money into religious institutions, or {and > so on}, we'd rather enjoy what we have now as WE want to enjoy it, and work > on making this place better for us, the next generation, and anyone else > who happens along. It seems that your perception of Christians' activity is incomplete. Many Christians are quietly active "making this place better"; they just don't inject themselves into the media. And anyway, the hereafter is by no means all Christianity is concerned about. Jesus Himself said that he had come that people might have life, and have it abundantly. This has been one of the most difficult things for me to internalize, but I'm beginning to see the truth of it. He wants us to have a joyous life on earth too. Andrae Crouch did a song including the lyrics, "If Heaven never was promised to me...it's been worth just having the Lord in my life." > If I wreck my health or kill myself at an early age, what possible concern > is that of yours? If I drink, or smoke, or get high, or have sex (yes, > please), or anything else that falls into your category of "self-destructive", > why should YOU worry about it? Look, I'm having a great time, and if I > go out this way, well, ok, maybe I'd rather stick around a little longer, > but I'll settle for the good times I've had in preference to cringing about > and worrying about what some turkey up in the sky thinks. It seems such a shame to blow away a good piece of God's handiwork. God don't make no junk, and you're no exception to that. In some ways you actually seem a better man than some on this campus (possibly even including Brother Max). Of course, if you do "go out" early, according to you you won't even know or care what kind of life you had; who, or what, will be around to actually settle for those good times? And finally, as I commented in another article, despite the fact that a lot of Christians do take a fearful approach to God, that's not what He intends. I'm finally learning that I can call Him "Dad" and treat Him, not as a strict disciplinarian who deliberately knocks me down over and over in order to get me to give up my sins, but rather as a Father I can just go to and tell my troubles to, who will gently and wisely show me a way out. You're free to believe and live any way you like (though why you would want hangovers is beyond me). You seem to think your present life is pretty good. All I'm doing is showing a way that has the potential to be even better. -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "Jesus looked Death in the eye, and Death blinked first."
rsk@pucc-h (Rich Kulawiec) (09/27/84)
>> = Kulawiec > = Sargent >> [In response to Jeff's query about whether I liked the idea of "transformed lives"] >> Well, I don't know, since I'm not sure what a "transformed life" is >> supposed to be. > It's what one sees when a person who is really messed up comes to Christ, and > his life gets straightened out. (In some cases this is more gradual than > others, mine for instance.) Okay, now I can answer: No, I don't like it. >> I certainly don't like (my perception of) Paul's >> (and possibly your) heaven/afterlife. > You did not describe your perception of heaven. I perceive it as, above all > else, incredibly (to us on earth) joyful. Did you read my bloody article? I said that personally, I don't think there is such a place; now, after that, why the hell would you complain because I didn't describe it? >> I don't like the idea that some >> bozo god-being is going to send some of us to eternal bliss, and some >> of us to eternal torment. That's a really stupid way to run a universe. > You still have your choice as to where you end up. What's stupid about that? > Anyway, C.S. Lewis has speculated that Hell might actually be "nothing but > yourself for all eternity." What the hell has C.S. Lewis got to do with this discussion? For that matter, what the hell has free will got to do with it? I'm talking about the utter idiocy of the eternal-niceness/eternal-torment scheme. >> When the day comes that I die, and find myself standing before some cosmic >> entity in judgement, I hope to be able to deliver my complaint(s) in person. > Good luck...Paul [the apostle, not DuBois] predicts that every knee shall bow > and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Yeah, bit fat hairy deal. Sure, if ol' omnipotent god-being decides to modify my brain-circuits, then I just might say or do whatever it wants. Come to think of it, the biblical god is just about enough of an asshole to do that, just for his own "glory". >> If I wreck my health or kill myself at an early age, what possible concern >> is that of yours? If I drink, or smoke, or get high, or have sex (yes, >> please), or anything else that falls into your category of "self-destructive", >> why should YOU worry about it? Look, I'm having a great time, and if I >> go out this way, well, ok, maybe I'd rather stick around a little longer, >> but I'll settle for the good times I've had in preference to cringing about >> and worrying about what some turkey up in the sky thinks. > It seems such a shame to blow away a good piece of God's handiwork. God don't > make no junk, and you're no exception to that. In some ways you actually seem > a better man than some on this campus (possibly even including Brother Max). > Of course, if you do "go out" early, according to you you won't even know or > care what kind of life you had; who, or what, will be around to actually > settle for those good times? *You* think it's god's handiwork; I think it's a large collection of molecules that happens to be self-aware. Do you think I have to "know or care what kind of life (I) had"? Why? > And finally, as I commented in another article, > despite the fact that a lot of Christians do take a fearful approach to God, > that's not what He intends. I'm finally learning that I can call Him "Dad" > and treat Him, not as a strict disciplinarian who deliberately knocks me down > over and over in order to get me to give up my sins, but rather as a Father I > can just go to and tell my troubles to, who will gently and wisely show me a > way out. Yeah, so what? What has this got to do with any of the rest of this? > You're free to believe and live any way you like (though why you would want > hangovers is beyond me). You seem to think your present life is pretty good. > All I'm doing is showing a way that has the potential to be even better. I don't want hangovers; I accept as a consequence of getting drunk. I do think my present life is pretty good; one of the only bad spots is that certain people keep insisting that it's not, and that they can make it better. You entirely missed the point of my little story about the shoes, and who needs them--and who doesn't. -- ---Rsk UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs } !pur-ee!rsk { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk And in all your pomp and glory, You're a poorer man than me, As you lick the boots of death, Born out of fear.
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (10/04/84)
>> = Kulawiec > = Sargent >> You still have your choice as to where you end up. What's stupid about that? >> Anyway, C.S. Lewis has speculated that Hell might actually be "nothing but >> yourself for all eternity." > What the hell has C.S. Lewis got to do with this discussion? For > that matter, what the hell has free will got to do with it? I'm talking > about the utter idiocy of the eternal-niceness/eternal-torment scheme. The point Lewis was making is that eternal torment may not be the fire-and- brimstone we traditionally think of, but rather having to exist utterly separated from the love of God...and of others. Inasmuch as you have chosen to separate yourself from the love of God, you will get your choice. >> Paul [the apostle, not DuBois] predicts that every knee shall bow >> and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. > Yeah, bit fat hairy deal. Sure, if ol' omnipotent god-being decides > to modify my brain-circuits, then I just might say or do whatever > it wants. Actually, the universal recognition of the Lordship of Christ will come as a result of unquestionable objective evidence of it. > *You* think it's god's handiwork; I think it's a large collection > of molecules that happens to be self-aware. Belief in self-awareness on the part of a mere collection of molecules seems to me to be a greater leap of faith than belief that there is a spirit using that collection of molecules as a temporary home, and that the spirit is self-aware. >> And finally, as I commented in another article, despite the fact that a lot >> of Christians do take a fearful approach to God, that's not what He intends. > Yeah, so what? What has this got to do with any of the rest of this? You were the one who spoke about "cringing and worrying about what some turkey in the sky thinks." I'm pointing out that real Christianity isn't that way. -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "I'm not asking for anyone's bleeding charity." "Then do. At once. Ask for the Bleeding Charity."