lisa@phs.UUCP (Jeff Gillette) (10/09/84)
<> <David Brunson> > Who can deny that the gentile church callously, deliberately, violently, > and *wickedly* cut itself off from its jewish roots? But people need > a heritage, and so the church adopted the greek. Well, consider it denied. The testimony of the New Testament is that the same Jews who crucified Jesus (Yeshua, Y'shua, or whatever you wish to call him) persecuted his followers and created the "12th Benediction" (the Birkath ha-Minim) to be used in all synagogue worship. For the apostates let there be no hope, and let the arrogant government be speedily uprooted in our days. Let the Nazarenes and the Minim [Heretics] be destroyed in a moment, and let them be blotted out of the Book of Life and not be inscribed together with the righteous. Blessed art thou, O Lord, who humblest the proud! <See, among others, J. Joxz, The Jewish People and Jesus Christ (1954) > Now, who left whom? We're talking about a date of 80-90 CE (AD) - well before Yiri's 110 "overthrow" of Jewish (N'tzrim) Christianity. BTW, regarding the roots of Christianity, the New Testament didn't exist as a collection until the beginning of the Third Century. *The* Christian Bible before that was the *Old Testament*. Some groups (like the followers of Marcion) threw out the Old Testament as unworthy of Christ. Others (gnostic groups) reinterpreted it in terms of Greek gods and demiurges. Both Marcion and all the gnostics were thoroughly repudiated by the orthodox Church, and Tertullian and Irenaeus (both goy church leaders in the Roman Empire) argued that the basic problem with both was their preoccupation with Greek philosophy. Listen to Tertullian (c 200) What indeed has Athens to do with Jerusalem? What concord is there between the Academy and the Church? what between heretics and Christians? Our instruction comes from the "porch of Solomon," ... Away with all attempts to produce a mottled Christianity of Stoic, Platonic, and dialectic composition! [On Prescription against Heretics, 7 - Ante-Nicene Fathers] Hardly sounds like Tertullian was looking around for a *greek* heritage to give his Christianity some root. > I must say that I *cringe* when people start talking about "the > original greek." Let me suggest a quick way to fame, wealth, and the Johnny Carson show. You produce the "original Hebrew/Aramaic" documents and you will be *the* Christianity scholar of the Century. Yiri was right - even the Syriac (Northeastern Aramaic) New Testament, the Peshitta, is a translation of the *Greek*! The simple fact is that there are *no* Hebrew/Aramaic originals! Beyond that, the books that have come to us in the canon of the New Testament are *not* in any way translations. They are unquestionably indigeneous Greek - language, style, literary allusions, the whole nine yards. > Or (like CS Lewis), are so enamored of the greek world-view that they > apply this goyishe abomination in discussing essentially Hebrew concepts > (love, judgement, righteousness, wisdom, understanding, and even *knowledge*). Pardon me, but I did not realize that love, judgment, righteousness, wisdom, understanding, even knowledge are *essentially Hebrew* concepts (:-)). Is it possible, Rabbi, that we might prevail upon you to stop railing on a topic so insignificant as the history of Christianity, and teach us the ultimate way of love, judgment, etc... > The NT writings were (with the possible exception of Luke) written by > Jews whose native language, culture, and *heritage* was jewish. It > seems clear that the best way to properly understand them is to become > saturated in Hebrew culture, concepts, and heritage. If you mean the background of the New Testament is anchored in the Torah and religion of Judaism, you have an ally here. If, however, anyone thinks that there was a unified, homogeneous, monolithic entity called "Hebrew culture, concepts, and heritage", Yiri can say, "Do your homework." Perhaps Yiri will discuss on the differences between Pharisees, Saducees, Zealots, Essenes (Dead Sea sectarians), popular religion, and Roman capitulators. This list only counts groups in Palestine. Philo, a good Jew in Alexandria, said that Plato was inspired (Plato stole all his ideas from Moses). BTW, the most intense piece of Israelite nationalism to come out of the mid Second Century (BCE), 1 Maccabees (the story of Jewish resistance to armies of Antiochus, et. al.), is written in flawless idiomatic *Greek*. Perhaps the writer learned Greek at the Gymnasium (Greek school) built in Jerusalem in 175 BCE! The myth of a "pure" Hebrew culture in the First Century has been put to rest by thousands of archeologist's spades. Check out Martin Hengel, Judaism and Hellenism (1974), > David Brunson > > ... better understanding through higher education. Good advice! Why not take it! Jeff Gillette ...!duke!phs!lisa The Divinity School Duke University
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (10/09/84)
Although the vernacular at the time of Jesus was indeed Aramaic, one should not discount the prevalence of Greek. There were major infusions of Greek thought and culture, and a large segment of the upper classes were thoroughly Hellenized. It is not at all improbable that the New Testament was written in Greek by Hellenized Jews, much as a medieval European scholar would write in Latin, regardless of his/her native tongue. This is supported by some of the textual evidence. One of the more accessible examples is in the accounts of the crucifixion in the Gospels (sorry, I don't remember which one). Jesus's cry of anguish "My Lord, my Lord, why have you forsaken me?" *is* written in Aramaic: "Eli, Eli, lamah smachthani?" There would be little point to retaining just that phrase when translating to Greek from an Aramaic original. A (secular Jewish) professor of Judaic Studies I know felt that that phrase was extremely significant, as an indicator of the power of the moment on the observers.