lisa@phs.UUCP (Jeff Gillette) (10/23/84)
<> <Yirmiyahu BenDavid> > I think you make an excellent point regarding the futility of trying > to use the greek copies redacted by Christians to prove Christian > doctrines and teachings. It is a classic example of circular reason- > ing. > When the 'New Testament' is filtered through the process I outlined > of accepting those things which more likely were taken from Jewish > fabric and rejecting those things which have greater resemblance to > the 'Roman fabric' of the time as being Roman redactions ... a much > more historical picture emerges, and one which is diametrically > different from the Christian 'Jesus' version. > When that is all the argument they have, then that is all the argument > they can use - which is so vividly demonstrated for us by Jeff Gillette. Apparently I am not having great success getting my point across. First: there are many documents that relate to Judaism in the First Century. Together they show a rich and pluralistic culture, united in their concept of their covenant with God, yet expressing very diverse interpretations of that covenant. All of these documents are the worthy objects of careful study, as is also the Jewish culture (or, perhaps better, cultures) of the time. Yirmiyahu has chosen, however, to address the question of one portion of First Century Judaism; a group that eventually evolved into (or was taken over by - this is, after all, one of the points in question) an essentially gentile religion - Christianity. To say that Christians appeal to Christian documents because "that is all the argument they have" is absolutely correct. BUT, these *Christian* documents (in *Greek*) are all Yiri has too. Yiri speaks in broad generalities about "N'tsarim" writings - yet the *ONLY* piece of solid evidence he has *ever* produced is a portion of a verse in the *Christian* Gospel of Matthew (read this as a challenge)! Yiri is the one who claims to know in detail the historical facts of Jesus' (or as he prefers, Yeshua's) life. Yiri is the one who claims to know in detail the practices and teachings of the early followers of Jesus (Yeshua). Yet the only methodology Yiri has produced is a vague reference to some type of "Jewish fabric" against which all evidence must be measured. But, if Yiri insists that Jesus (Yeshua) can only bee looked at through [orthodox] Jewish-colored glasses, is it any wonder that he appears as a good Jew (:-)) There is no conceivable evidence that Yiri would accept to disprove his thesis. Thus, as I have argued elsewhere, Yiri does not present us with a logical proposition that can become the object of scholarly debate, but with statements of his own emotions - ethnic pride and insecurity! (read this as a challenge too) If Yiri thinks that his ideas about Jesus (Yeshua) and his early followers (N'tsarim) rest upon any evidence, and not merely upon wishful thinking, let him appeal to his evidence. The first step is to establish the canons of evidence. It is not enough to point to many documents that form a "Jewish fabric" - that might be fine for a sociologist, but the questions Yiri has picked are historical, not sociological. Which books represent (or contain) the writings of the "N'tsarim"? Which books represent (or contain) historically accurate tradition about Jesus (Yeshua)? And by what methodology will "historical" material be separated from "redaction"? Hint: the principle Yiri articulates above - "historical" is whatever agrees with his particular brand of Judaism - is not very convincing :-) I have thus far tried to avoid great historical detail regarding the events of Jesus' (Yeshua's) life, or of his early followers in Palestine. This is because it is easier to talk about the documents we have than the documents we wish we had! Yiri, on the other hand, wants to present these historical "facts" in detail, and thus takes the burden of proof on himself. If there is any evidence to back up these "facts", let the rest of us in on the secret, and start with which documents count for historical purposes. Otherwise, think about moving your comments to net.jokes :-) (read this as a challenge) Jeff Gillette ...!duke!phs!lisa The Divinity School Duke University