[net.religion] Response to Andy re: morality of men

ken@qantel.UUCP (Ken Nichols@ex6193) (10/25/84)

  
Andy writes:
  
> Ken,
> You obviously have some pretty set beliefs, and I'm not here to try to
> tell you that you should change them. I am going to comment on my
> feelingson them. They differ from yours a fair amount, and I hope you
> realize that I'm not condemning you for them.

Thank you for being so civil.  You don't get much of that around here.

>>Laurie writes,
>>>  ... I would most certainly
>>> burn in hell because I had not accepted jesus christ as my personal saviour.
   
>>She was right.
  
> My, you must be in on something that the rest of the world isn't. I have
> no complaint if these are your own beliefs, but to make a statement that
> this is FACT is going just a little too far! Not all the world accepts
> these facts, and I see no reason they should. These are beliefs, not
> facts. Each person has their own beliefs. Facts are undeniable truths.
> The two are not the same, and I don't see any reason to try to say that
> ones own beliefs are factual, except to simply better his argument.

They are facts.  Just because your belief system may tell you that they are not
does not change the fact that they are.  If we go by your system of thinking,
nothing can be considered a fact.  Nothing is undeniable.
  
>> You burn in hell for your rebellion against God.  The rebellion you were born
>> with.  God, in His omnipotence will take care of the child and the monk.  If
>> they are searching for God, they will be rewarded in finding Christ (the only
>> way to heaven).
> 
> And just what is rebellion against God? Which God are we talking about
> here? There are as many Gods as there are people in the world, simply
> because each one has their own vision of what God is. Even if you don't
> believe in a God, you probably have a pretty good concept in your own
> head of what a God would be or do. It irks me when other people try to
> push their God on me. Why should I believe in their God? If I have my
> own, and don't have any complaints, nobody has to "save" me from
> anything. There is nothing of danger out there, I don't need to be
> "saved" from some terrible "burning" that is going to happen when I die.

There is only one God.  The system of this world has made you beleive there are
many, and in this belief, that there are many roads to paradise.  However, if
we take the view that there are many Gods, I do have a reason why you should
believe this one over any others.  Has any other God on record ever:

                1.  Taken on human flesh
                2.  Came to live on this earth like a man, yet keep all
                    His godly attributes under submission.
                3.  Died to save His creation from eternal destruction, and
                    give them a relationship with Himself.
                4.  Rose from the dead, and now lives.

Who has told you that there is no need to be saved.  This world that is under
the dominion of Satan has told you this.  He doesn't want you to think there is
anything to be saved from.  The terrible burning is not near as bad as the 
reality of eternal seperation from God or any other people that will be
experienced in hell.
  
>>> Anyway, about every May, we would be deluged with students from the local
>>> baptist high school.  They apparently had to 'save' x number of people to
>>> graduate from high school.
>>> It got to be a game to see how many times we were going to be
>>> saved in a given month.
>> 
>> That was not a very good approach to use on a child, to be sure.  But they
>> were basically right in there motives for doing it.  They didn't want to 
>> see little children live without the joy of accepting Christ.
> 
> "They were basically right in there [sic] motives for doing it."?!! It
> seems to me that a major problem with "Christianity", when viewed this
> way is, that it IS a game to see how many people you can wheedle into
> your way of thinking but nothing more than scare tactics. I realize this
> probably is going to be planty of flame food for you out there, but what
> other way is there to explain it?

Didn't you read the last line of what you quoted.  They did it to show people
the joy that one can have in knowing Jesus Christ as your saviour.  Different
means of witnessing need to be used on different people.  
  
>>> Well, the jist of this is that the fundamentalist movement appears to have
>>> a rather odd idea of what you need to be a *good* person.  Apparently 
>>> inherent morality isn't worth anything.  
>>
>> That is absolutely right.  Why should you get to make the standards that you
>> live by.  The Bible says, "There is a way that seemeth right to a man, and 
>> the end thereof is death."  Your 'good' deeds are nothing but dirty rags in
>> the sight of a holy God.  Nothing you do is going to make you deserving of
>> anything from God but death and punishment in hell forever and ever.
> 
> If this is what you and your "God" advocate, I'm not sure that I would
> want to even try to argue with you. I don't really feel there is
> anything after this life, then what harm are good deeds during this life
> going to do? If I feel good being kind to others, then isn't that enough
> for me (obviously not for you) to make myself happy while I'm alive on
> Earth? Why do you feel this need to change me?

I didn't say that good deeds by the unsaved in this life do any harm.  I said
they wouldn't bring you any closer to God.  I don't feel a need to change you
in your doing of good deeds.  I feel a need to save you from the wordly system
that you have come to believe in.  Satan is very good at deceiving man in
making him think he's doing just fine on this earth.  Many people will get a 
shock on judgement day when they find that all the good things they did will
not count for anything without a personal relationship with the originator of
all good deeds.
  
>>> It is the acceptance of *their*
>>> god into your life which makes all the difference.  
>>
>> Right again.  At least you know what we beleive.  Since there is no way that
>> we can reach God's standards on our own, and the result of this is punishment
>> in Hell, God sent His son, Jesus Christ to satisfy the anger of God towards
>> our sin.  However, in order to become justified in God's sight, we must first
> accept the gift that God gave in the form of Jesus.  Doing this involves:
> 
>> 1.  Admiting you are a sinner ...
> 
> blah blah blah ...
> 
>> This is the meaning of the phrase 'receive Christ as your personal saviour.'
> 
> You hit it right on the head ... "you know what we believe." Right, we
> know what you believe. But that is no reason for us to accept it as out
> own belief. You give us a list of things to do to be like you. What if
> we don't want to be like you? What if we are happy the way we are? I
> think I'd feel pretty miserable if my one purpose in life would be to
> make other people believe like I do. If they believe something
> different, and I can't prove them wrong, why should I interfere? You
> can't prove your position is right. You obvously feel that you are
> right. Why can't we just say "I'm OK, You're OK", and leave it at that.

I gave you a list of things to find the proper way to reach a relationship
with God.  I cannot make you be like me.  I don't want anyone to be like me.
I do want people to be saved from eternal damnation and to experience the
closeness that mankind can have with God.  

We can't say "I'm OK, you're OK" because nobody is OK.  This philosphy of
total indifferance in looking for the right spiritual path is what this 
sin controlled society would like everyone to believe.  God shows how we
can become OK in His sight if we accept the gift of sacrifice that He has
given.  But we still will never really be OK by His standards until our
life on this earth is over.
  
>> Something I'd like to point out here is now that you are saved, the 'good'
>> deeds you did in the past, will now be *GOOD* deeds if you do them now.  Now
>> they are done for the right reasons (out of love for God, and His gift to
>> you).
> 
> If I do a "good" deed, it isn't because I'm showing off to a God, it's
> because I wanted to do it, because I wanted to feel good about it myself
> and maybe have someone else feel good about it. It wasn't because I had
> to, or because if I don't, I won't be "saved". It is because I wanted to
> do it.

I didn't say I was showing off to God, that would be pridefull, and would count
the good deed as nothing.  Although there is joy in doing something for another
person, I do not do a good deed for that motive.  The reason for doing a good 
deed is because you know that God is glorified in this way.  And since our 
purpose in life is to give God the glory He deserves, I will do this out of
a desire to give God this bit of glory.  Everything is done for God, our own 
emotional needs in the way of 'joy of giving', etc. is an offshoot of this
primary purpose.  Remember good deeds won't save you, they are result of 
salvation.

>>>It appears, in their frenzy to 'save' souls (is that like plaid stamps?), they
>>> have gotten their own morality distilled into a mere meaningless chanting of
>>> words.
>>
>> Man's morality is worth nothing in the sight of a holy and just God.
> 
> I find it a bit hard to believe that anyone would ever admit that their
> morality was "mere meaningless chanting of words.", but I guess you just
> did it. If that's what you want, who am I to complain?

Man's morality is nothing in itself.  It becomes a good thing when it is put
to use to glorify God.  And no one can glorify God unless He first comes into
a relationship with Him.

>> All this follows after you have become saved.  Having turned your life over to
>> the Lord will cause the good thoughts about Him to be expressed in good words
>> and deeds. 
> 
> I seriously doubt that whenever someone does a good deed, they say "Hey,
> that was just a good thought for my God." Then again, there probably are
> people like that. If they do "good deeds", than I guess I shouldn't
> question their motivation. Whatever.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Andy Banta			{decvax!allegra!ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-k!agz

I think if you said, "Hey, that was just a good thought FROM my God.", this
statement would be true for me at least.  All good things that really count
come out of the desire to give God glory after salvation.

Thank you for this very cordial reply.  I found it very refreshing.
-- 


"...holding forth the                              Ken Nichols
 word of life..." Phil. 2:16                       ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken
------------

bdp@ptsfa.UUCP (Barbara Petersen) (10/25/84)

>> [Andy Banta]
>>                                                                   I have
>> no complaint if these are your own beliefs, but to make a statement that
>> this is FACT is going just a little too far! Not all the world accepts
>> these facts, and I see no reason they should. These are beliefs, not
>> facts. Each person has their own beliefs. Facts are undeniable truths.
>> The two are not the same, and I don't see any reason to try to say that
>> ones own beliefs are factual, except to simply better his argument.

> [Ken Nichols]
> They are facts.  Just because your belief system may tell you that they are 
> not does not change the fact that they are.  

Ken-- You forgot to add the ":-)" to this....


                                           Barbara Petersen
                                           ..!dual!ptsfa!bdp

ken@qantel.UUCP (Ken Nichols@ex6193) (10/26/84)

>>> [Andy Banta]
>>>                                                                   I have
>>> no complaint if these are your own beliefs, but to make a statement that
>>> this is FACT is going just a little too far! Not all the world accepts
>>> these facts, and I see no reason they should. These are beliefs, not
>>> facts. Each person has their own beliefs. Facts are undeniable truths.
>>> The two are not the same, and I don't see any reason to try to say that
>>> ones own beliefs are factual, except to simply better his argument.
  
>> [Ken Nichols]
>> They are facts.  Just because your belief system may tell you that they are 
>> not does not change the fact that they are.  
> 
> Ken-- You forgot to add the ":-)" to this....
> 
>                                            Barbara Petersen
>                                            ..!dual!ptsfa!bdp

There wasn't supposed to be one.  Just because an erronious belief system backs
up his claim that the proofs for my religion are not true, that does not change
the truthfullness of the proofs.  All it does is help him deny the facts.

-- 


"...holding forth the                              Ken Nichols
 word of life..." Phil. 2:16                       ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken
------------