elwell@osu-dbs.UUCP (Clayton) (10/22/84)
I have recently decided to start reading net.religion again. I now think this may have been a mistake on my part. One of the first articles I saw was Ken Nichols' reply to Laurie Sefton. When I get home from work I will don my fireproof armor and enter the fray. For now, just a few comments: > If they are searching for God, they will be rewarded in finding Christ > (the only way to heaven). This is an admirably broad-minded statement about salvation. The problem is that I'm not sure that how I read the sentence is how you meant it. From your comments, I assume that your criteria for "receiving Christ" is effectively "you have received Christ if you believe the same things I do about Him and God". This is, of course, simplistic, but it is the impresison I get. I would be interested in your definition of "receiving Christ". Do you believe that the Christ described in the New Testament is the One True Way? Is it possible that who Christ is depends on who you are? I have a deep Christian faith, but I doubt it is the same as yours. Is it possible that God does not give himself to the world only through one experience and the document of that experience called the Christian Bible? It is not the name that matters, or the description of the experience. ANYONE WHO CHOOSES to follow the path of goodness and spiritual growth is sanctified by that choice and the actions implied by that choice, whether they name it "receiving Christ", "knowing the Buddha", or simply "doing what is right". Christians DO NOT have a monopoly on salvation and redemption. The name "receiving Christ" is a way of describing through metaphor an action or choice that cannot be described in words. A literal interpretation of descriptions of the experience (as you seem to be doing) can, especially when it is forced upon others under the guise of a "moral obligation", causes more harm than good. > Jesus was who He said He was, God's son. ... Jesus Christ is deity. Read your Bible again. Jesus never, NEVER, referred to himself as God, or even as the Messiah. The phrase "Son of Man", which he did use, was a phrase in common usage at the time meaning simply "righteous man" or "pilgrim". Jesus did not ask his people to worship him, but God the Father, the Jewish YHWH. He had problems with Jewish dogma and society, but he never claimed to be the Messiah, who as I understand (and will check this evening) was to a MILITARY or POLITICAL leader. > ... want Him to control your life in return ... Any fool can have his life controlled from outside. With man created in the image of God, complete with free will, I have problems with this statement... I must get back to work. More to follow. Arghh. Clayton Elwell ...!cbosgd!osu-dbs!elwell Elwell@Ohio-State (CSnet)
lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick) (10/30/84)
> Clayton Elwell: > > Jesus was who He said He was, God's son. ... Jesus Christ is deity. > Read your Bible again. Jesus never, NEVER, referred to himself as God, > or even as the Messiah. The phrase "Son of Man", which he did use, was > a phrase in common usage at the time meaning simply "righteous man" or > "pilgrim". Jesus did not ask his people to worship him, but God the > Father, the Jewish YHWH. Permit to enlighten (all from New American Standard Bible): John 4:25-26 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us. Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." John 5:17-18 But [Jesus] answered them, "MY Father is working until now, and I myself am working." For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (same idea in John 10:30-33) John 8:58-59 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him... [not just claiming to be God, but the God who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, cf. Exodus 3:14] John 11:4 But when Jesus heard it, He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it." John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." Also Matt 9:2-6 (== Mark 2:5-10, Luke 5:20-24), Jesus claimed the power to forgive sins, which the Jews knew belonged to God alone, and demonstrated by healing the paralytic. And in John 20, Jesus accepted Thomas's worship - something both Peter (Acts 10) and an angel (in Revelation) refused. -- The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford {amd,decwrl,sun,idi,ittvax}!qubix!lab You can't settle the issue until you've settled how to settle the issue.
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (10/30/84)
In article <716@osu-dbs.UUCP> elwell@osu-dbs.UUCP (Clayton) writes: [>>= Ken Nichols (whom I never thought I'd be defending!)] >> Jesus was who He said He was, God's son. ... Jesus Christ is deity. >Read your Bible again. Jesus never, NEVER, referred to himself as God, >or even as the Messiah. Good Grief!!!!! Don't you people ever READ your gospel? I John, Jesus says "He who has seen me has seen the Father." How can that not be a claim to divinity? And in front of the Sanhedrin (I'm not sure whether in John or Matthew), when they ask him if he is the son of God, he says, "I am." Charley Wingate
bill@utastro.UUCP (William H. Jefferys) (10/30/84)
>In article <716@osu-dbs.UUCP> elwell@osu-dbs.UUCP (Clayton) writes: > >[>>= Ken Nichols (whom I never thought I'd be defending!)] > >>> Jesus was who He said He was, God's son. ... Jesus Christ is deity. > >>Read your Bible again. Jesus never, NEVER, referred to himself as God, >>or even as the Messiah. > >Good Grief!!!!! Don't you people ever READ your gospel? I John, Jesus says >"He who has seen me has seen the Father." How can that not be a claim to >divinity? And in front of the Sanhedrin (I'm not sure whether in John or >Matthew), when they ask him if he is the son of God, he says, "I am." > >Charley Wingate Charley is correct, of course, about what I John says. However, I don't think that it can be relied upon to the same degree that the synoptic gospels can as a source of Jesus' actual words, particularly in view of the fact that John was written, among other things, to "prove" the divinity of Jesus. When someone has an axe to grind, as John did, one is entitled to view what he says with skepticism. -- "When evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve" Bill Jefferys 8-% Astronomy Dept, University of Texas, Austin TX 78712 (USnail) {allegra,ihnp4}!{ut-sally,noao}!utastro!bill (uucp) bill%utastro.UTEXAS@ut-sally.ARPA (ARPANET)
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (10/31/84)
I see from William Jefferys article that I had "I John" where it should have said "In John". I meant to refer to the Gospel, not the epistles; I don't take the epistles as a firm authority on the words that Jesus spoke either. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (11/05/84)
> [Clayton Elwell] > > > ... want Him to control your life in return ... > > Any fool can have his life controlled from outside. With man created > in the image of God, complete with free will, I have problems with > this statement... Then think of God's control as coming from inside. God's Spirit lives inside of God's children. What's the problem? -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois