jnelson@trwrba.UUCP (John T. Nelson) (10/26/84)
Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: A pridefull man's reaction to a Holy God. References: <516@watdcsu.UUCP>, <246@qantel.UUCP> That's right. Now you have finally got the right idea. God sets the standards not AT&T (or anyone else) (no offense to AT&T). Omnipotence does NOT give ANYONE the right to go blowing people away... especially if that person (or deity in this case) advocates the sanctity of life. Satan is pretty damn powerfull too... and probably a lot more intellegent than you are.... does THAT give him the right to do anything he likes? No... Face facts.... God has reserved the right to do anything he likes, not because he deserves to, but because he wants to. 3) God gave us free will, but people caught actually using it are subject to eternal punishment. You must have a queer definition of free will. We have the free will to obey God or to rebel against Him. However, your eternal destiny depends on your choice. Talk about queer definitions of free will! In your conception, God is holding a gun to your head and saying, "OBEY ME OR DIE THE DEATH OF A THOUSAND TORMENTS!" This isn't a choice of free will... it's blackmail! Our eternal destinies are NOT dependent upon such concious choices. They are driven completely by the choice God makes... whether to condemn us or let us live. In your view, he has chosen to decimate the human population. All men are born in rebellion to God. This act is sin and deserving of punishment. Let's look at your words closely... "All men are born in rebellion to God." You mean that even the most innocent baby is a rebellious little snot who deserves countless lives of burning flames? I guess so since he has had no time to accept God and is clearly "deserving of death." Just how do you justify this? "This act is sin and deserving of punishment." WHAT ACT? The act of being born? Let's assume that God said, "ALL deserve to die... and I'm going to give Ken Nichols the gun that is going to kill all of you." Well? Would you obey the almighty God and kill every man women and child earmarked for extermination? Remember... he'll condemn you too, if you disobey him. What are you more concerned with? Obeying God or doing what is right? If you only wish to obey an all powerfull diety then you have proven yourself a slavish coward... unwilling to stand up for the truth because you only want to save your own skin from the torments of hell. And just what ARE you going to tell the mothers of the sons who are condemned? How do you intend to console them? How would you feel if God condemned your best friend, or your spouse? Only a monster would advocate putting people to death because of their supposed inability to fulfill a particular creed or belief. Yes you've convinced me... man desires nothing but death and I'm sure that God will give you you're fill! Because of our praising God, we see ourselves in the way God sees us. This however is not all bad after we have become saved. God can then see past the sin that Christ died for and commune with the man. Christians view themselves in the light of God's perfection, and in that light, strive (with His help) to become closer to that perfection (though we will never achieve it in this life). If we do become pridefull for some reason, God will not dump us. When we realize that our pride is a sin and confess it, He will forgive us and renew that close communion with us. This is such an over rationalization that it becomes nothing more than an excuse. I think the title to your article was quite disgusting, and I would greatly appreciate it if you would not refer to my God in your disgusting manerisms, thank you! I think the title of the article quite apropriate, and I would greatly appreciate it if you would not refer to my God in your disgusting ideas. Interesting that you have no qualms about attributing to God another disgusting mannerism.... that of gneocide. The first sentence is true to a point. Remember, God values the man, but not his sin. I stated that repeatedly in my article. The second sentence could not be farther from the truth (except that God IS wise and wonderfull). Man is not even worthy to see God's feet, let alone lick them. If God values the man and not the sin then he would dispose of the sin and not the man. For a wise and wonderfull God why does he have to throw out the baby with the bath-water? To fulfill some hateful need of man's I suspect. If God wants a true communion with man then he will have to get used to man looking at his feet. Communion is a two-way thing. In fact I'm sure he already knows your thoughts already... I wonder what he thinks of them. The last statement is a good example of a prideful man's response to God. It's classic. You do not want to except the fact that there is a deity over you that you will be accountable to, so you flame at it. Unless you turn from that stinking sinfull pride, you will remain lost for eternity! Pride has nothing to do with it. You can't accept the fact that your God might be wrong, so your knee-jerk reaction is to label any and all objections as "prideful man's" response. How neat and tidy. Your entire article is a classic example of a prideful christian taking great pleasure from the thought that the world will one day be purged of all forms of life not conforming to a particular belief. It's classic. You do not want to except the fact that maybe your deity really does not exist so you flame away at anyone who opposes it. Unless you turn from your stinking sinfull pride, you will remain lost for eternity! "...holding forth the Ken Nichols word of life..." Phil. 2:16 ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken Oh really?
ken@qantel.UUCP (Ken Nichols@ex6193) (10/29/84)
> Newsgroups: net.religion > Subject: Re: A pridefull man's reaction to a Holy God. > References: <516@watdcsu.UUCP>, <246@qantel.UUCP> > > That's right. Now you have finally got the right idea. God > sets the standards not AT&T (or anyone else) (no offense to > AT&T). > > Omnipotence does NOT give ANYONE the right to go blowing people away... > especially if that person (or deity in this case) advocates the sanctity > of life. Satan is pretty damn powerfull too... and probably > a lot more intellegent than you are.... does THAT give him the right to > do anything he likes? No... Face facts.... God has reserved the right to > do anything he likes, not because he deserves to, but because he wants to. I'm afraid I agree with you here, but I don't know if I should be. Your right, God does what He wishes because wants to. But He also has other motivations behind His actions. One of these would be because all He does is perfect. > 3) God gave us free will, but people caught actually using it > are subject to eternal punishment. > > You must have a queer definition of free will. We have the > free will to obey God or to rebel against Him. However, your > eternal destiny depends on your choice. > > Talk about queer definitions of free will! In your conception, God is > holding a gun to your head and saying, "OBEY ME OR DIE THE DEATH OF A > THOUSAND TORMENTS!" This isn't a choice of free will... it's > blackmail! Our eternal destinies are NOT dependent upon such concious > choices. They are driven completely by the choice God makes... whether > to condemn us or let us live. In your view, he has chosen to decimate > the human population. I'm glad I don't have to live under such an arbitrary God. The standards He requires are plainly laid out in the Bible. There is nothing arbitrary about His plan. We chose whether to follow or rebel. > All men are born in rebellion to God. This act is sin and deserving > of punishment. > > Let's look at your words closely... "All men are born in rebellion to > God." You mean that even the most innocent baby is a rebellious little > snot who deserves countless lives of burning flames? I guess so since > he has had no time to accept God and is clearly "deserving of death." > Just how do you justify this? I gave my answer to this in another posting. When I child is old enough to no the difference between right and wrong, and to make a choice between the two, he is old enough to understand God's plan, and to make the correct choice. I beleive children who die before reaching this knowledge are taken to be with the Lord. However, the natural desire to rebel is in a man at the time of birth. > "This act is sin and deserving of punishment." WHAT ACT? The act of > being born? Let's assume that God said, "ALL deserve to die... and I'm > going to give Ken Nichols the gun that is going to kill all of you." > Well? Would you obey the almighty God and kill every man women and > child earmarked for extermination? Remember... he'll condemn you too, > if you disobey him. I'm glad God does not give man things like these to do. I doubt that I could do such a thing. God, however, created us, and can take any life He gave away. Those who chose not to follow will not escape punishment. I wish I could be nicer about it, but that's what it says in the Bible. > What are you more concerned with? Obeying God or doing what is right? > If you only wish to obey an all powerfull diety then you have proven yourself > a slavish coward... unwilling to stand up for the truth because you > only want to save your own skin from the torments of hell. Obeying God means doing what is right. He can't, by His very nature, do anything wrong. Some things may look wrong to human eyes, but they are not. God is truth, and I stand up for Him. > And just what ARE you going to tell the mothers of the sons who are condemned? > How do you intend to console them? How would you feel if God condemned your > best friend, or your spouse? Only a monster would advocate putting people > to death because of their supposed inability to fulfill a particular creed > or belief. I would tell the mothers how they could be saved from the judgement to come. It wouldn't be easy, but I would have to. God only condemns those that choose not to obey. He is justified in this. Your last sentence is again showing the pride I was speaking of earlier. You are to proud to believe something that doesn't make perfect sense to you. > Yes you've convinced me... man desires nothing but death and I'm sure > that God will give you you're fill! I don't desire death. I deserve death for my sin, but thank God, Christ took the penalty for my sin in His own body on the cross. > Because of our praising God, we see ourselves in the way God > sees us. This however is not all bad after we have become > saved. God can then see past the sin that Christ died for and > commune with the man. Christians view themselves in the light > of God's perfection, and in that light, strive (with His help) > to become closer to that perfection (though we will never > achieve it in this life). If we do become pridefull for some > reason, God will not dump us. When we realize that our pride > is a sin and confess it, He will forgive us and renew that > close communion with us. > > This is such an over rationalization that it becomes nothing more than > an excuse. An excuse in your eyes, the plan of a wonderfull God in mine. > I think the title to your article was quite disgusting, and I > would greatly appreciate it if you would not refer to my God in > your disgusting manerisms, thank you! > > I think the title of the article quite apropriate, and I would greatly > appreciate it if you would not refer to my God in your disgusting ideas. > Interesting that you have no qualms about attributing to God another disgusting > mannerism.... that of gneocide. God is not a man, that you can pin Him down with human terms. Not genocide, justice. Men deserve whatever they get. > The first sentence is true to a point. Remember, God values > the man, but not his sin. I stated that repeatedly in my > article. The second sentence could not be farther from the > truth (except that God IS wise and wonderfull). Man is not > even worthy to see God's feet, let alone lick them. > > If God values the man and not the sin then he would dispose of the > sin and not the man. For a wise and wonderfull God why does he have > to throw out the baby with the bath-water? To fulfill some hateful > need of man's I suspect. God did dispose of the sin. Jesus Christ's death on the cross took that sin away. All God asks is that we accept that gift, and serve Him with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. > If God wants a true communion with man then he will have to get used to > man looking at his feet. Communion is a two-way thing. In fact I'm > sure he already knows your thoughts already... I wonder what he thinks > of them. After the above acceptance and commitment above is done, we can boldly walk before God (not arogantly, but boldly) knowing that we are justified before Him. This act is called prayer. > The last statement is a good example of a prideful man's > response to God. It's classic. You do not want to except the > fact that there is a deity over you that you will be > accountable to, so you flame at it. Unless you turn from that > stinking sinfull pride, you will remain lost for eternity! > > Pride has nothing to do with it. You can't accept the fact that your > God might be wrong, so your knee-jerk reaction is to label any and all > objections as "prideful man's" response. How neat and tidy. You want to be right, so you call Him wrong, is this your aim? Sounds just like pride to me. > Your entire article is a classic example of a prideful christian > taking great pleasure from the thought that the world will one day be > purged of all forms of life not conforming to a particular belief. The world will be purged of sin, and those who run in sin. > It's classic. Your attempt at copying my article is not very amusing, though inventive. > You do not want to except the fact that maybe your deity really does > not exist so you flame away at anyone who opposes it. Unless you turn > from your stinking sinfull pride, you will remain lost for eternity! What will I lose if God doesn't exist? Not much. You, on the other hand, stand to lose alot if you God does exist, and you have not obeyed His word. > > "...holding forth the Ken Nichols > word of life..." Phil. 2:16 ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken > > Oh really? Yes, "To the Jews, a stumbling block, to the Gentiles, foolishness, but to those who are being saved, the power of God..." -- "...holding forth the Ken Nichols word of life..." Phil. 2:16 ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken ------------
jnelson@trwrba.UUCP (John T. Nelson) (11/06/84)
[Ken Nicholls] I gave my answer to this in another posting. When I child is old enough to no the difference between right and wrong, and to make a choice between the two, he is old enough to understand God's plan, and to make the correct choice. I beleive children who die before reaching this knowledge are taken to be with the Lord. However, the natural desire to rebel is in a man at the time of birth. [John T. Nelson] And when a child reaches that age what if he does NOT make the right choice? Are you saying that every child since Adam and Eve has necessarily made "the wrong choice." Exactly WHAT choice is this? Seems quite vague to me. I am aware of no one who has made such a conscious choice (including myself). It seems ludicrous to think that no one - in all of human history - has made the proper choice between good and evil. This record should tell you something about the validity of your above statements. On the other hand, if it is not in man's nature to make the right choice then we STILL don't have free will. Its like telling a full-grown lion that he has it in his power to make a choice between desiring yummmy bloody meat, or straw (yech). Clearly it is not in his nature to make a choice of this sort. It would be unfair to expect anything else of him then to go out and hunt down his food on the hoof. Which means we really DON'T have any choices to make of our own free will. Let's assume that God said, "ALL deserve to die... and I'm going to give Ken Nichols the gun that is going to kill all of you." I'm glad God does not give man things like these to do. I doubt that I could do such a thing. But you already HAVE. By consciously advocating and aiding such behavior, you have sinned as much as if you had pulled the trigger yourself. By giving man free will, God HAS given men "things like these to do." He certainly gave Christ things to do that Christ had no choice in. He also told Abraham to kill his own son, so don't look aghast when he asks YOU to do something contrary to your image of God. God, however, created us, and can take any life He gave away. I gave my childern life, but that doesn't give me the right to take it away from them for any reason. And I wouldn't, because I love them too much. That's the kind of love and respect that your God manages to avoid although its what he advocates. Those who chose not to follow will not escape punishment. I wish I could be nicer about it, but that's what it says in the Bible. And that's the ONLY statement that you have made that can be given any real creedence... "but that's what it says in the Bible." And just what ARE you going to tell the mothers of the sons who are condemned? How do you intend to console them? How would you feel if God condemned your best friend, or your spouse? Only a monster would advocate putting people to death because of their supposed inability to fulfill a particular creed or belief. I would tell the mothers how they could be saved from the judgement to come. It wouldn't be easy, but I would have to. I was refering to the mothers who had ALREADY been accepted into heaven, and their sons who had already been condemned to the eternal fires. How can you possibly convince them that THEY deserve heaven, but their sons and daughters did not? I guess that just about raps it up for Peter too. Peter, who betrayed Christ THREE TIMES, yet upon whom Christ said he would build his church! People are not the automatons that you think they are. They WILL object if they have any spirit or love of life left in them! It would be a dreary world-to-come indeed if it were filled with such non-humans. But let me guess... God will wipe away all dissent... God only condemns those that choose not to obey. He is justified in this. You haven't shown us WHY he is justified in doing so. Its one thing to say that the Bible tells us it is so and that God has the power to do so. But it is quite a different matter to tell us that somehow only God has the right to take away life. Your arguments are all quickly boiling down to Biblical infallibility. Your last sentence is again showing the pride I was speaking of earlier. You are to proud to believe something that doesn't make perfect sense to you. Wrong... I don't believe in YOU Mr. Nicholls. Like other fired-up believers you are so quick to label me, and then tell me what all of my faults are. I have commented only upon what YOU have freely disclosed to the net. My innermost beliefs have never been disclosed, although you are quick to make judgement on them. Please tell us more... you might include my most passionate beliefs along with major faults and a quick sketch of my overall behavior. Don't be too quick to judge others. Many have entertained angels and not realized it. Entertainment is a good word for it too. I don't desire death... You desire eternal punishment and death for people, not for the sin. God is not a man, that you can pin Him down with human terms. God IS a man... his name is Jesus Christ. This is not a dictatorial God who bellows orders and expects them to be obeyed... he is a God who was willing to tell us WHY he does the things he does and to listen to man's comments. Why do you think that Christ spent so much time talking WITH people, huh? If God REALLY wants us to know him, then he had better expect a lot of "rebellious" questions. If he wants obedience, then he should raise the stones up as sons of Abraham... obedient to his law and word. Not genocide, justice. Men deserve whatever they get. Thus is the punishment for those rebel scum that dare to defy the Empire! After all, it's the empire that calls the shots in this galaxy... and if you don't obey, you deserve whatever you get. That includes having you planet and all of your people fried. For a wise and wonderfull God why does he have to throw out the baby with the bath-water? To fulfill some hateful need of man's I suspect. God did dispose of the sin. Jesus Christ's death on the cross took that sin away. All God asks is that we accept that gift, and serve Him with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. God apparently did not dispose of the sin for those that are to be condemned to hell... or are those only the screams of sins I hear down there? So my original question remains unanswered... why can he see fit to take away your sin, but not that of someone even though he is unwilling. After all, he's a perfect and all-powerful God... he can do ANYTHING. Also, you have failed to show HOW Jesus Christ's dying on the cross, in ANY way shape or form takes away sin... unless it is simply a ritual slaughter... in which case it STILL doesn't explain why God cannot take away sin without killing off the man. A few hours on the cross doesn't seem like compensatory damages to me. Pride has nothing to do with it. You can't accept the fact that your God might be wrong, so your knee-jerk reaction is to label any and all objections as "prideful man's" response. How neat and tidy. You want to be right, so you call Him wrong, is this your aim? No... I want the truth, so I call YOU wrong. Sounds just like pride to me. It sounds like pride to you because you label everyone as being caught up in their own pride. Your problem is that you have taken up a belief which you are now trying to defend with whatever evidence fits your already preconcieved notions. Now if you REALLY wanted to know the truth, you would form your beliefs based UPON the evidence. That's the way of the truth. Your entire article is a classic example of a prideful christian taking great pleasure from the thought that the world will one day be purged of all forms of life not conforming to a particular belief. The world will be purged of sin, and those who run in sin. Do I really need to draw parallels with Adolph Hitler here? Yes? What will I lose if God doesn't exist? Not much. You will have lost everything that makes life worthwhile. You will have, in fact, squandered your life on foolishness. By insisting that this life is worth shit and the next life will be infinitly better, you not only run the risk of piddling this life away and staring into the depths of oblivion upon your death; but you also run the risk of offending a God, for whom you have claimed to speak for. You, on the other hand, stand to lose alot if you God does exist, and you have not obeyed His word. Oh do *I* (on the hand of the goats) stand to loose a lot now? As if YOU (Ken Nicholls) spokesperson for God in any way knew my innermost beliefs and thoughts. Such arrogance! Such shallow appraisal! After all, you wouldn't be giving such warnings to other believers, so I MUST be a sinner, right? Hey Speak... you should find this amusing... - John