mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (11/09/84)
In article <909@aecom.UUCP> teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) writes: >> >> 1. [Admit] you are a sinner by birth and by choice, and that you can nothing >> >> to get rid of your sin. >> > >> > If I am a sinner by birth, then I have had no *choice* in the matter. >> > Make up your mind: are we sinners by birth, or are we sinners by choice? >> > >> > David Canzi >> >> This is a very difficult concept to explain, but let me give it a shot. You >> are a sinner by birth by the original sin of Adam which caused all men to have >> a nature contrary to God's will. However, you still choose to sin. If you are >> tempted to commit a sin, you make the choice whether to do so or not. There >> is no such thing as 'The devil made me do it.' >> >> The same kind of thing applies when speaking of salvation. A man can chose to >> try and find God, the God of the Bible. Chances are, the Holy Spirit will >> reward a man in this search by opening his eyes to the scriptures so that he >> might see the truth of Jesus Christ's redemptive work on the cross. Without >> the Holy Spirit, no man can fully see how to be saved. >> >> What I meant when I said that there is nothing that we can do to be saved was >> that doing 'good works' and the like can't save you. Even seeking after God >> can't save you, but it is the best way to start if you wish to know the truth >> about the Bible. >> >> Even after the Holy Spirit shows a man the truth of the Bible, a man still has >> to make a choice about whether to believe it or not. >> -- >> >> "...holding forth the Ken Nichols >> word of life..." Phil. 2:16 ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken >> ---------------- > I am new to net.religion and have been amused by the ongoing discussion > about salvation etc. Being an orthodox Jew, my background in other religions > is weak, so if I say something horrible do not get too upset, just answer > me as kindly as possible. I have no malice at heart but rather just an > interest in other people's beliefs. > Now for my questions. > 1. If the only way to salvation is through jesus, what did everyone before >him do? Are they to be damned for something they didn't even know would > eventually exist? If not, then how can someone today who never found out > about christianity be damned? He should be no worse than someone who > preceeded the whole thing. A very good question, and one, I'm afraid, which has no satifactory answer, unless you appeal to church tradition. There is an ancient tradition that Jesus, while he was dead, went through Hell preaching, freeing many from its bounds. This is called the "Harrowing of Hell", and virtually every ancient church includes it in its iconography. The intent of the image is that the dead will all have the opportunity to choose between Jesus and the eternal Death. Unfortunately, appeals to New Testament do not yield clear and satifactory answers; but then, those who've read my articles know I do not consider scripture to be the be-all and end-all of Christianity. > 2. I would feel like an utterly useless, helpless person if the only way > I could atone for my sins was to get someone else's help ( even jesus ). Why > can't I approach G-D by myself and ask for myself. Why the intermediary?Also > if my nature is inherently evil, why punish me for it? On the day of judge- > ment, I would feel very comfortable going to G-D and saying,'How could you > punish me for acting in the way You created me? After all You creaed me evil > so how can I be punished for living that way?'. The meaning of the story of the fall of Adam and Eve is that while people have the potential to live in harmony with G-d, in practice they have become deaf to G-d and to his ways. One of the reasons that Jesus was made G-d incarnate was to show that G-d cares; it's sort of like when someone is living a wretched life, and his parents keep calling him up and saying, "Come home; all is forgiven." The forgiveness doesn't mean anything unless the person who is being forgiven accepts it. I personally have no use for the "You gotta believe in Jesus to be saved" argument. How then is Abraham saved? The reason why appealing to Jesus can work is that Jesus is G-d; while I would rather that Jews acknoledge Jesus as God now, I suspect that a lot of Jews (and who knows whom else) are going to rise from the dead one day, see Jesus/G-d, and say, "Gee, I never realized it was you all along." Now I expect to be castigated by Ken Nichols. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe Ubi Caritas et Amor, Deus ibi Est.