afo@pucc-h (Flidais ) (10/22/84)
(have you considered becoming a Lhasa Tiger for a career?)
Now there you go again, Ken....
After you stated that my friend was right in saying that even though I had
a strong set of morals, I would burn in hell if I didn't accept jesus christ
as my saviour; I wondered 'now, how would he react if I had said that she
told me that I was worshipping a false messiah, and if I didn't accept
Mohammed as the one true prophet of islam, I would most certainly burn in an
infidel's hell'. All of a sudden, it becomes different, if it isn't
your brand of religion someone is spouting...
Now, to the idea that I was born to rebelliousness. I thought the Catholic
(as opposed to catholic) church had the patent on original sin. My mistake.
At least we've gotten rid of the concept of limbo. now god decides whether
you have been searching for him/her/it/them, and probably whether you have
been searching hard enough... more bizarre criterion....
Now to the 'fast-food save-the-masses' as provided by the graduating seniors
(anyone want to guess which church I'm talking about? hint: it is in the
Chicago area). Most of those people had no higher brain functions left by the
time they were to graduate from high school. If you tried to engage them in
any debate in theological issues (since 85% of the town is Catholic, the
people there really didn't apprciate Baptists trying to convert their
children at the tennis courts), their only response was quoting non-related
items out of the bible (new testment only...), and when you beat down their
arguments on that, they just resorted to calling you a demon or such, and
letting you know that you were gonna get yours. Nothing like being told that
the nuns at one's grade school (I was never a member of the Catholic church
BTW, it was mostly guilt by association) were messing with the priests and
brothers, to make you really want to like these people...
So, you say that man shouldn't make the standards, because once you have
accepted *the lord* into your life, god will show you what standards to
follow? Gee, some (heck most) of the people I have met who have been
'saved' have been some of the most spiteful, nasty, back-stabbing ... well
you get the idea...Come on now... tell me about those lovely people who
spout the gospel at one instance and then give you a bad work review because
you refused to go to Wednesday bible meetings before work (a non-sectarian
company, and it didn't happen to me, but happened to a friend of mine).
A president of a company, while getting on the cases of those who are (gasp)
'living in sin' bellowing out in a meeting that 'We should have taken care
of those damn jews when we had a chance' (he didn't like the foreign
competition).
These are examples of people acting nicer *after* they have accepted
*the lord*. I wouldn't have wanted to meet them before they did....
You know, Ken (and others) every year during Holy Week in Spain, they have
massive groups of men called 'flagelantes'. They put on hoods, and
walk the streets during processionals, beating themselves with ropes and
chains, trying to make amends for all the sins they have committed in the
past year. At the same time, groups of men are fighting down the street
over who has the best float.. Best of both worlds.....
Laurie Sefton
{harpo,ihnp4,allegra,decvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h!afo
"Lifemate! Friend of my body and my soul! I will be with you forever!"ken@qantel.UUCP (Ken Nichols@ex6193) (10/24/84)
Laurie writes: > Now there you go again, Ken.... > > After you stated that my friend was right in saying that even though I had > a strong set of morals, I would burn in hell if I didn't accept jesus christ > as my saviour; I wondered 'now, how would he react if I had said that she > told me that I was worshipping a false messiah, and if I didn't accept > Mohammed as the one true prophet of islam, I would most certainly burn in an > infidel's hell'. All of a sudden, it becomes different, if it isn't > your brand of religion someone is spouting... Did Mohammed rise from the dead? No, I don't think so. Jesus Christ did. > Now, to the idea that I was born to rebelliousness. I thought the Catholic > (as opposed to catholic) church had the patent on original sin. My mistake. To my knowledge, all Judeo-Christian religions teach the doctrine of original sin. That's about the only thing they agree on. > At least we've gotten rid of the concept of limbo. now god decides whether > you have been searching for him/her/it/them, and probably whether you have > been searching hard enough... more bizarre criterion.... If a man has an open heart to the gospel, he will be shown the true way to God. I could get into predestination here, but that is a very hard doctrine to understand. > Now to the 'fast-food save-the-masses' as provided by the graduating seniors > (anyone want to guess which church I'm talking about? hint: it is in the > Chicago area). Who cares what church they were from? > Most of those people had no higher brain functions left by the > time they were to graduate from high school. If you tried to engage them in > any debate in theological issues (since 85% of the town is Catholic, the > people there really didn't apprciate Baptists trying to convert their > children at the tennis courts), their only response was quoting non-related > items out of the bible (new testment only...), and when you beat down their > arguments on that, they just resorted to calling you a demon or such, and > letting you know that you were gonna get yours. There responses did not make sense to you, but they might have if you had been shown by the Holy Spirit what they meant. The things of the Bible are spiritually appraised. If you refused to listen to there response, they did not have to continue to tell you anymore (although they shouldn't have been so vile). > Nothing like being told that > the nuns at one's grade school (I was never a member of the Catholic church > BTW, it was mostly guilt by association) were messing with the priests and > brothers, to make you really want to like these people... My pastor is an ex-catholic, and he can tell you that the things above could have been true. He saw things such as these in the Catholic Church > So, you say that man shouldn't make the standards, because once you have > accepted *the lord* into your life, god will show you what standards to > follow? Gee, some (heck most) of the people I have met who have been > 'saved' have been some of the most spiteful, nasty, back-stabbing ... well > you get the idea...Come on now... tell me about those lovely people who > spout the gospel at one instance and then give you a bad work review because > you refused to go to Wednesday bible meetings before work (a non-sectarian > company, and it didn't happen to me, but happened to a friend of mine). > A president of a company, while getting on the cases of those who are (gasp) > 'living in sin' bellowing out in a meeting that 'We should have taken care > of those damn jews when we had a chance' (he didn't like the foreign > competition). > These are examples of people acting nicer *after* they have accepted > *the lord*. I wouldn't have wanted to meet them before they did.... Just because someone now knows the right standards doesn't mean they can live up to then any better on their own strength. Only reliance on the strength of Jesus Christ will cause them to live even close to His standards. I think I remember saying that nooone can ever measure up to God's standards while on this earth. His standard is perfection. Who ever said that Christians don't sin? Most of the time a Christian's sin is more obvious than a non-beleivers because he is supposed to have 'seen the light'. Excepting Jesus doesn't make anyone less human. Nor does it give anyone the attributes of God. You cannot throw out the whole reality of Christiandom because a few hypocrites have spoiled your life. > You know, Ken (and others) every year during Holy Week in Spain, they have > massive groups of men called 'flagelantes'. They put on hoods, and > walk the streets during processionals, beating themselves with ropes and > chains, trying to make amends for all the sins they have committed in the > past year. At the same time, groups of men are fighting down the street > over who has the best float.. Best of both worlds..... > > Laurie Sefton > {harpo,ihnp4,allegra,decvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h!afo > "Lifemate! Friend of my body and my soul! I will be with you forever!" People do this because they think it is the body that sins. The mind sins, then the body follows after. The sin of rebelliousness against God takes place more in the mind than the body, so beating the body into submission does nothing to appease God's wrath. We must make our minds pure before Him, and the only way to do this is through the grace of Jesus Christ. "...holding forth the Ken Nichols word of life..." Phil. 2:16 ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken ----------
yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (10/24/84)
If Ken has any legitimate basis for his claims, let him first deal with the issues in my articles before using the Christian New Testament and Christianity to 'save' people. The whole concept of Christianity is a counterfeit. He would not be saving them, he would be dooming them to following a counterfeit, and therefore a false messiah / antichrist.
ken@qantel.UUCP (Ken Nichols@ex6193) (10/26/84)
> If Ken has any legitimate basis for his claims, let him first > deal with the issues in my articles before using the Christian > New Testament and Christianity to 'save' people. The whole > concept of Christianity is a counterfeit. He would not be > saving them, he would be dooming them to following a > counterfeit, and therefore a false messiah / antichrist. I know full well why the Jews in the New Testement rejected Christ. It was either: 1. They wanted to continue to following the Law. That way they could be assured of going to paradise. They were able to twist the Law (which was meant to be a set of guidelines to show a man his need for God) into an actual entire religious system. A system that they knew they could keep, and therefore enter the kingdom justified. But the Law doesn't save, just as 'good works' do not save. -OR- 2. They were looking for anyway to get our from under the persecution of Rome. Because the prophecies concerning the Messiah were cloudy in this area, they thought that the First Coming of the Messiah was His Second Coming with His Kingdom to reign upon the earth. When Jesus didn't satisfy their requirments in this area, they rejected Him both politicaly (though He sought no political power) and spiritually. Because of the Jews rejection to Christ, the gospel was given to the Gentiles (other nations) also. Praise the LORD. BTW, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, who is, and when is He comming? -- "...holding forth the Ken Nichols word of life..." Phil. 2:16 ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken ------------
chuqui@nsc.UUCP (Zonker T. Chuqui) (10/28/84)
> After you stated that my friend was right in saying that even though I had > a strong set of morals, I would burn in hell if I didn't accept jesus christ > as my saviour; I wondered 'now, how would he react if I had said that she > told me that I was worshipping a false messiah, and if I didn't accept > Mohammed as the one true prophet of islam, I would most certainly burn in an > infidel's hell'. All of a sudden, it becomes different, if it isn't > your brand of religion someone is spouting... It is, of course, intuitively obvious-- It would be incredibly silly for me to worship a false God, therefore my God is the right God and you are wrong. Case closed, no discussion needed (this, of course, was echoed very closely in one episode by Archie Bunker on 'All in the Family'). Every person MUST believe that their God is the right God, or their faith becomes meaningless. Unfortunately, there are some insecure souls in the world who need to prove their own faith by converting everyone else to it as well. I mean, if nobody disagrees with me, I HAVE to be right, no? (well, no, but that's beside the point). I find it very difficult to understand WHY the Christian pantheons have such a problem with the existence of other forms of the same God. There were societal reasons why your God came down to you the way He did when He did, and why you worship Him the way you do. Those reasons are totally inadequate for other times, places and societies. Do you honestly think that your God isn't smart enough to modify his actions to make Himself accessible to all peoples in ways they can accept and enjoy? Do you really think that He would create humanity in all its diverse splendor only to try to narrow it down to a single worshipful viewpoint and the accompanying narrowing of diversity of their lives? If you do, I think you are seriously underestimating the visions of God. Face it. God doesn't want us all to be Christians, or Catholics, or Jews, or Zen Buddists. God wants us to be people. The political beauracracies of the organized religions all want us to be members of their organized religions because they can then control and modify our behavior to fit their uses. They want us to conform, because they want us to do it their way, not God's way. My biggest complaint with the Bible is that it is a work that has been modified through time by those in power to assist them in keeping power and augmenting it. It has been mis-quoted, taken out of context, used, defiled, and ignored all in the name of power. I don't need someone telling me what my God wants of me or how to run my life, my God tells me directly. The idea is to learn to listen to the voice of God that is inside you rather than the voices of the pulpits that are trying to tell you that an infinite and all-powerful being needs to have self-appointed representatives interpret what they think He meant (seriously, did you God tell you that this person was His personal representative to you because He was too busy to deal with you directly? Do you really want to worship someone who is too busy for you?) > So, you say that man shouldn't make the standards, because once you have > accepted *the lord* into your life, god will show you what standards to > follow? Gee, some (heck most) of the people I have met who have been > 'saved' have been some of the most spiteful, nasty, back-stabbing ... well > you get the idea... Tolerance, Laurie, tolerance. Don't drop to their level-- remember, they may have been 'saved' by a false god and know not that what they do is wrong. If they open their heart, they will realize that intolerance is one of the greatest sins that has ever been created... I want to make one final note on all of this before I let the flamers at it. I'm not a Christian nor do I believe that the Bible is the word of God. I do celebrate Christmas because there are many (many, many!) good teachings in the words of Jesus of Nazareth if only people could forget some of the dogmatic religious materials that surround them. The same can be said for the teachings of Lao Tze, of Buddah, of Islam, or Zoroaster, of the pantheons of Greece and Rome and the Nordic areas. If you must label me, the label Zen Druid fits, I guess. I'm not attempting to tell any single person out there that they should NOT be a Christian but should be a Zen Druid. If you are happy worshipping your God as a Christian and it helps you be a better person, I have nothing but happy thoughts for you. I only ask the same tolerance of you-- I was NOT happy as a Christian, it was not until I realized that I needed to worship my Gods directly, rather than through appointed representatives, that I found what I was looking for. It worked for me, you do what works for you, and what really matters is that He would love to see us all do something other than bicker about who's God is the right God. The answer is simple, you know-- they all are. NOT happy k -- From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA I'd know those eyes from a million years away....
ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (10/29/84)
-- >> Face it. God doesn't want us all to be Christians, or Catholics, or Jews, >> or Zen Buddists. God wants us to be people. The political beauracracies of >> the organized religions all want us to be members of their organized >> religions because they can then control and modify our behavior to fit >> their uses. They want us to conform, because they want us to do it their >> way, not God's way. My biggest complaint with the Bible is that it is a >> work that has been modified through time by those in power to assist them >> in keeping power and augmenting it. It has been mis-quoted, taken out of >> context, used, defiled, and ignored all in the name of power. I don't need >> someone telling me what my God wants of me or how to run my life, my God >> tells me directly. The idea is to learn to listen to the voice of God that >> is inside you rather than the voices of the pulpits that are trying to tell >> you that an infinite and all-powerful being needs to have self-appointed >> representatives interpret what they think He meant (seriously, did you God >> tell you that this person was His personal representative to you because He >> was too busy to deal with you directly? Do you really want to worship >> someone who is too busy for you?)... >> NOT happy k >> From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach BRAVO, Chuq. Suscinctly--and tolerantly--put!! Intolerance is hard to deal with. One is tempted to respond in kind. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 28 Oct 84 [7 Brumaire An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** *** <--PLEASE NOTE NEW EMAIL ADDRESS!
rjb@akgua.UUCP (R.J. Brown [Bob]) (10/30/84)
Laurie,
Judging a group by its sorriest adherents is an easy way
to avoid the substance of their position. I certainly
don't want to get into "Who is a *real* Christian, Jew,
Atheist,..." however I hope you get my drift.
There is a difference between being religious and loving
and serving the Lord. Our friends the Pharisees were/are
religious but their hearts were far from God.
And Mercy Sakes Laurie, I'm not requiring that Christians
or anyone else never make a mistake or be nasty etc.
I'm talking about an approach to life that will shine through.
"You gotta walk the walk as well as talk the talk."
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}orb@whuxl.UUCP (SEVENER) (11/09/84)
> Face it. God doesn't want us all to be Christians, or Catholics, or Jews, > or Zen Buddists. God wants us to be people. The political beauracracies of > the organized religions all want us to be members of their organized > religions because they can then control and modify our behavior to fit > their uses. They want us to conform, because they want us to do it their > way, not God's way. My biggest complaint with the Bible is that it is a > work that has been modified through time by those in power to assist them > in keeping power and augmenting it. It has been mis-quoted, taken out of > context, used, defiled, and ignored all in the name of power. I don't need > someone telling me what my God wants of me or how to run my life, my God > tells me directly. > From the Department of Bistromatics: Chuq Von Rospach > {cbosgd,decwrl,fortune,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!chuqui nsc!chuqui@decwrl.ARPA Unfortunately it is true that the political bureaucracies of the Churches often are put to bad purposes. A book has just been published about Cardinal Spellman and his blatant interference into politics, his support for allout bombing in Vietnam and various nasty things. We saw the same thing in the last election with Archbishop O'Connor and other Catholic bishops urging Catholics to consider abortion before all other moral issues in the election. Moreover 79% of Fundamentalists voted for Reagan based upon the use of religion for political ends. An argument I have heard again and again is that anyone who worries about Nuclear War cannot believe in God because God would not allow such a thing to happen. This attitude scares me because I think we are drifting towards a possible Nuclear War but nobody seems to care. The same argument could have been used to argue that there was no use worrying about the "Final Solution" to the Jewish Problem because God wouldn't allow millions of people to be brutally murdered. One also notices a two-faced attitude towards God's beneficence and our duty to do something about moral issues. On the one hand Fundamentalists were roused to do something about the fetuses being aborted every day in a political way by voting for Reagan. On the other hand movement towards a Nuclear War is not opposed because God will somehow prevent it. It is perfectly obvious that God is not acting to prevent the abortion of thousand of fetuses--then why is it not just as obvious that she will do nothing to prevent nuclear weapons from exploding if they are launched ? I don't see any miraculous disappearance of nuclear weapons from either sides stockpiles............ Will the Christians on this Net support a war in Central America if it comes? tim sevener whuxl!orb