yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/08/84)
An interesting question has come up on the Jewish net which seems to me to be of a more general interest so I'm offering it to net.religion for comment. In discussing the undercurrents of antisemitism in America, I asserted that the German people in Nazi Germany were primarily Christians and as church-going as most countries (stated a little differently but same idea). I had never run across any serious attempts to show evidence to refute this notion. Larry Bickford has offerred some quotes which the reader may wish to review on the jewish net to which I will address myself. Two of the three quotes offerred (the first and the third) are apparently nothing more concrete that stated goals of the a small elite in the German government. Granted that I was not aware of this, however at least at this point, I am still not at all persuaded by this scant evidence that this was even remotely true for the masses of German people in Nazi Germany. Furthermore, since the Fourth Reich was to have been the Fourth Holy Roman Empire, I find these quotes somewhat contradictory to the German goals which were also widely published. The second quote, when read carefully, can be taken to support my assertion that this was a church-going Christian people which forced Prof. Hauer to "confess the primal religious will of the German people". This seems to me to support what I've been saying rather than contradict it. The quote that "the struggle between Christianity and the German faith in the German soul is thus an event of unexpected depth" really says nothing decisive on the matter. Further, it would be appropriate to supply references when there is some question as to the validity of the source. Since there may well be questionable sources on this topic, I would like references on the quotations submitted by Larry in his last article as well. I'd be interested if there is hard evidence beyond the usual "THEY weren't REALLY Christians" drivel. This does NOT mean opinion, beliefs, convictions, suppositions, etc. that we usually hear. (The quotations are hard evidence, but haven't enough weight to be convincing at this point.) Also, I will not accept the usual Christian methodology of presuming it is right, offering some flimsy half-relevant argument and then concluding "See, you can't PROVE I'm wrong THEREFORE I'm right!" Oy!
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (11/10/84)
In article <1695@ucf-cs.UUCP> yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) writes: >An interesting question has come up on the Jewish net which seems to me >to be of a more general interest so I'm offering it to net.religion for >comment. > >In discussing the undercurrents of antisemitism in America, I asserted >that the German people in Nazi Germany were primarily Christians and as >church-going as most countries (stated a little differently but same >idea). I had never run across any serious attempts to show evidence to >refute this notion. Larry Bickford has offerred some quotes which the >reader may wish to review on the jewish net to which I will address >myself. > >Two of the three quotes offerred (the first and the third) are >apparently nothing more concrete that stated goals of the a small elite >in the German government. Granted that I was not aware of this, however >at least at this point, I am still not at all persuaded by this scant >evidence that this was even remotely true for the masses of German >people in Nazi Germany. Furthermore, since the Fourth Reich was to have >been the Fourth Holy Roman Empire, I find these quotes somewhat >contradictory to the German goals which were also widely published. > >The second quote, when read carefully, can be taken to support my >assertion that this was a church-going Christian people which forced >Prof. Hauer to "confess the primal religious will of the German people". >This seems to me to support what I've been saying rather than contradict >it. The quote that "the struggle between Christianity and the German >faith in the German soul is thus an event of unexpected depth" really >says nothing decisive on the matter. Further, it would be appropriate to >supply references when there is some question as to the validity of the >source. Since there may well be questionable sources on this topic, I >would like references on the quotations submitted by Larry in his last >article as well. > >I'd be interested if there is hard evidence beyond the usual "THEY >weren't REALLY Christians" drivel. This does NOT mean opinion, beliefs, >convictions, suppositions, etc. that we usually hear. (The quotations >are hard evidence, but haven't enough weight to be convincing at this >point.) Also, I will not accept the usual Christian methodology of >presuming it is right, offering some flimsy half-relevant argument and >then concluding "See, you can't PROVE I'm wrong THEREFORE I'm right!" >Oy! The Lutheran churches had, up until the War, a strong policy of non-involvement in politics; they refused to get involved until it was too late for them to put up an effective protest. While it is certainly true that the Nazi party appealed to "christianity" to drum up anti-semetic sentiment, the material evidence suggests that they were afraid of organized christendom, and tried (at least among some of their own people) to substitute a vague sort of religion more palatable to their political ends. As an example, the chapel of Spielberg castle in Brno was deliberately profaned and rebuilt as a 'Nazi" shrine. A number of important religious leaders were arrested and some executed, the most famous being Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Others joined underground movements. A majority were certainly either too scared to do anything or were so nominally christian that its moral system had few claims on them anyway. The claim of 'christ-killers' so frequently used as a rallying call for persecution of the Jews is, by the way, a clear perversion of the christian message, and the gospels explicitly disown it in many places. Revenge is most explicitly forbidden to christians. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick) (11/13/84)
> In discussing the undercurrents of antisemitism in America, I asserted > that the German people in Nazi Germany were primarily Christians and as > church-going as most countries (stated a little differently but same > idea). I had never run across any serious attempts to show evidence to > refute this notion. Larry Bickford has offerred some quotes which the > reader may wish to review on the jewish net to which I will address > myself. A good ground for discussion. > Two of the three quotes offerred (the first and the third) are > apparently nothing more concrete that stated goals of the a small elite > in the German government. Granted that I was not aware of this, however > at least at this point, I am still not at all persuaded by this scant > evidence that this was even remotely true for the masses of German > people in Nazi Germany. Furthermore, since the Fourth Reich was to have > been the Fourth Holy Roman Empire, I find these quotes somewhat > contradictory to the German goals which were also widely published. ["Fourth Reich"? "Fourth Holy Roman Empire"? The Third Reich and the Holy Roman Empire, those I have heard of. But "Fourth"?] > The second quote, when read carefully, can be taken to support my > assertion that this was a church-going Christian people which forced > Prof. Hauer to "confess the primal religious will of the German people". > This seems to me to support what I've been saying rather than contradict > it. The quote that "the struggle between Christianity and the German > faith in the German soul is thus an event of unexpected depth" really > says nothing decisive on the matter. For Yiri's "carefully," read "with Yiri's paranoia." > Also, I will not accept the usual Christian methodology of > presuming it is right, offering some flimsy half-relevant argument and > then concluding "See, you can't PROVE I'm wrong THEREFORE I'm right!" And so it is with Yiri's ideas about Christian anti-semitism... The quotes I gave in net.religion.jewish are cited in Wilbur Smith's _Therefore Stand_, pp 86-88 and 536. He provides the references: Hitler's contempt for Christianity was expressed to Dr. Herman Rauschning, at one time president of the Danzig senate, and a member of the secret party conclaves from 1932-1935. This was published in Hugh Martin's _Christian Counter-Attack: Europe's Churches Against Nazism_, p.16 (continuing on to page 17, Martin also discusses Mussolini). Professor Hauer's and the GFM's remarks are available in Hauer & Karl Heim's _The German Faith Movement_ (published in 1937). Smith also notes "On the entire subject of the attitude of Germany toward Christianity, particular reference should be made to the large 16-page pamphlet _Watchman What of the Night_, by Stanley High; "Rosenberg's Myth and Nazi Propagandism," by Leonard de Moor, in _The Calvin Forum_, April 1938 pp.200-203. And, just for skeptics and the super-paranoid: /\/\/\ _Therefore, Stand_ was published in >1944< !!! -- The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford {amd,decwrl,sun,idi,ittvax}!qubix!lab You can't settle the issue until you've settled how to settle the issue.