jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (11/05/84)
I propose to setup a new religion subgroup - net.religion.coercion.
The aim of this subgroups will be to:
a. Identify and discuss instances and areas of religious coercion
and oppression.
b. Propose ways to combat religious coercion attempts.
Some Examples of areas of religious coercion and oppression:
1. Abortion rights
2. School prayer
3. Creationism
3. Book banning.
4. Witch hunt
5. Gay harassment
Some subgroups discuss subjects such as abortion, creationism, etc. They
emphasize the moral, scientific, religious point of view. This subgroup
will provide a collective form for discussing these and other subjects
only from the perspective of religious coercion.
Although the the primary objective of this subgroup is to discuss
religious coercion in the US, it should not be limited to the
US. The are many examples of religious coercion in other countries
(for example USSR and Iran). Exposing world wide religious
(and anti-religious) coercion, will increase our understanding of
this phenomenon.
--
Yosi Hoshen
Bell Laboratories
Naperville, Illinois
(312)-979-7321
Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jhojho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (11/06/84)
In my previous posting I suggested to form a new USENET subgroup -
net.religion.coercion. I have given some examples for areas of
religious coercion:
1. Abortion rights
2. School prayer
3. Creationism
3. Book banning.
4. Witch hunt
5. Gay harassment
I forgot to mention a very important area of religious coercion:
6. Censorship
As netters, this area is of great concern to us. Let us not forget
that Tim Maroney, who has some unorthodox religious views, was expelled
from the network. There were unanswered allegations that religious
censorship was the motive for that incident.
--
Yosi Hoshen
Bell Laboratories
Naperville, Illinois
(312)-979-7321
Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jhorlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (11/06/84)
> I propose to setup a new religion subgroup - net.religion.coercion. > The aim of this subgroups will be to: > a. Identify and discuss instances and areas of religious coercion > and oppression. > b. Propose ways to combat religious coercion attempts. > Some Examples of areas of religious coercion and oppression: > 1. Abortion rights > 2. School prayer > 3. Creationism > 3. Book banning. > 4. Witch hunt > 5. Gay harassment [There are TWOOOOOOOOOO... rule #3's!!! :-) ] If people want to see everyone cubbyholed into newsgroups where they will only be talking with those who agree with them, then this subgroup requested by Yosi Hoshen is a MUST. Frankly, to those people who think one reason for net.religion.christian is to keep christian proselytizing out of the main stream, let me say this: I'd much rather have them proselytizing and proposing their imposed moralities and claiming their claims out in broad daylight in a mainstream newsgroup. Because as long as we believe in their freedom to express their viewpoints, others will have the freedom (no, obligation) to try to point out precisely what they are doing. Unfortunately, the very nature of isolationist subgroups makes discussion between people of dissimilar (or diametrically opposed) viewpoints next to impossible. Which is, unfortunately, exactly what some of the proponents may want. Makes for a better world, I guess, from their perspective. A quieter one, perhaps, and a less questioning one... -- "If we took the bones out, it wouldn't be crunchy!" Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr
ken@turtlevax.UUCP (Ken Turkowski) (11/07/84)
> > I propose to setup a new religion subgroup - net.religion.coercion. > The aim of this subgroups will be to: > > a. Identify and discuss instances and areas of religious coercion > and oppression. > b. Propose ways to combat religious coercion attempts. > > Some Examples of areas of religious coercion and oppression: > > 1. Abortion rights > 2. School prayer > 3. Creationism > 3. Book banning. > 4. Witch hunt > 5. Gay harassment I think that such a group would indeed have lively discussions, and is timely with the re-election of Reagan and his ties to the radical religious zealots. -- Ken Turkowski @ CADLINC, Palo Alto, CA UUCP: {amd,decwrl,flairvax,nsc}!turtlevax!ken ARPA: turtlevax!ken@DECWRL.ARPA
lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick) (11/07/84)
Yosi's ideas for subjects for net.religion.coercion reflect the one- sided thinking I have too prevalent among the liberals. [The number scheme is Yosi's] > Some Examples of areas of religious coercion and oppression: > [Yosi's ideas] [another part] > 1. Abortion rights Killing of babies > (Infant Doe is not the end) > 2. School prayer Humanism in the schools > > 3. Creationism Education based on evolutionary > principles. > 3. Book banning. Indoctrination based on teachers' > selection of books, and state usurpation of parental authority. > 4. Witch hunt Forcing Christians to live as > non-Christians. > 5. Gay harassment Not allowing discussion on the > basic issue. [cf. mod.motss] -- The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford {amd,decwrl,sun,idi,ittvax}!qubix!lab You can't settle the issue until you've settled how to settle the issue.
mat@hou4b.UUCP (11/09/84)
It seems that people are lumping a variety of ``offenses'' together:
Book Burning
Witch Hunts
Repression of Gays
Attempts to restrict or eliminate Abortion
In the first three cases, the people who are in favor of the item listed
are attempting to restrict or regulate another's morality. In the final
case, the poeple who are in favor of the activity listed sincerely believe
that another person is beign hurt besides the one culpable. Please do not
lump everything that you don't like together. Further discussion does NOT
belong on this newsgroup.
Some sneered, some sniggered, some simpered
In the youth where we laughed and sang
And *they* may end with a whimper
But we will end with a bang!
GKChesterton.
I'm going to post some more of this remarkable man's philosophy soon,
regarding the ``scientism'' question.
--
from Mole End Mark Terribile
(scrape .. dig ) hou4b!mat
,.. .,, ,,, ..,***_*.jho@ihuxn.UUCP (Yosi Hoshen) (11/10/84)
>It seems that people are lumping a variety of ``offenses'' together: > > Book Burning > Witch Hunts > Repression of Gays > Attempts to restrict or eliminate Abortion > >In the first three cases, the people who are in favor of the item listed >are attempting to restrict or regulate another's morality. In the final >case, the people who are in favor of the activity listed sincerely believe >that another person is beign hurt besides the one culpable. Please do not >lump everything that you don't like together. Further discussion does NOT >belong on this newsgroup. Well, I totally disagree with you. I consider the attempts to restrict or eliminate abortion as the worst case of of religious coercion in the US. There may be a few who are not religiously motivated in their anti-abortion stance, yet, the greatest pressures to end abortions are coming from religious groups. Without the religious pressure, I doubt if we would see any serious attempts to restrict abortion. These groups are trying to force their morality and religious dogma on others who do not subscribe to the former' religious views. When I suggested to discuss abortion in the proposed net.religion.coercion, I did not intend discussion issues such as: 'Is the fetus a person or not a person?' The place of such topic is net.abortion. My intention is to discuss the religious coercion aspect of the attempt to make abortion illegal, and how to frustrate these efforts. -- Yosi Hoshen Bell Laboratories Naperville, Illinois (312)-979-7321 Mail: ihnp4!ihuxn!jho
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Pamela Troy) (11/11/84)
Somehow, it doesn't surprise me that Larry Bickford would object to the concept of a net.religion.coercion. After all, in the past he has advocated discrimination against nonChristians. He has suggested that nonChristians have tax sanctions imposed on them and has hinted that in the "ideal" society he hopes for nonChristians would have "a few problems." What these "problems" might be, he has refused to say. I would be very interested in how, exactly, he thinks Christians are being "forced to live as nonChristians", but I'm not very optimistic about getting a straight answer from him. Personally, I think his reluctance to discuss religious coercion stems from the fact that if he were to tell us what he really thinks the place of nonChristians should be in our society, he would be exposed for the religious fascist that he is. -- Pamela Troy, c/o Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: Try sending through a gateway such as DECWRL, UCB-VAX, SEISMO, or HARVARD -- mailer conventions differ on syntax "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." Liber AL, II:9.
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (11/13/84)
[TIM MARONEY ON LARRY BICKFORD] > Personally, I think his reluctance to discuss religious coercion stems from > the fact that if he were to tell us what he really thinks the place of > nonChristians should be in our society, he would be exposed for the > religious fascist that he is. Larry's answer-by-diversion-or-epithet tactic, as well as his repeated "I've already answered that" obfuscation, have hopefully already exposed him. For those who complain about "ad hominem" attacks, when someone like Arndt or Brunson or whomever repeatedly says nothing while promoting the idea that they are actually saying something, that should be pointed out. Only substantive arguments should have weight in a discussion such as this. Attempts to snow people with non-arguments in the hopes that they will bypass the issue itself and simply make the same assumptions as the "snower" amounts to nothing but fascism, and should be labelled and designated as such. P.S. Welcome back, Tim. -- "If we took the bones out, it wouldn't be crunchy!" Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (11/16/84)
Thanks for the welcome, Rich -- I hope that wasn't the first article from this account to reach your site, though. Also, it was from Pam, not me, and I thought that was indicated fairly clearly... -- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim (supposedly) "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." Liber AL, II:9.