ken@qantel.UUCP (Ken Nichols@ex6193) (11/17/84)
> [John T. Nelson] > And when a child reaches that age what if he does NOT make the right > choice? Are you saying that every child since Adam and Eve has > necessarily made "the wrong choice." Exactly WHAT choice is this? > Seems quite vague to me. I am aware of no one who has made such > a conscious choice (including myself). It seems ludicrous to > think that no one - in all of human history - has made the proper choice > between good and evil. This record should tell you something about the > validity of your above statements. The choice I was refering to was the choice to obey God by accepting the gift of Jesus Christ or not. This choice is a lifetime choice. A person starts out not obeying. They are able to understand and obey at the age of consent that I described. They may anytime after that age chose to follow God. If they die before they have without following God, I'm sorry, they are lost. Many people have made the correct choice. I think at this time in your life you know what choice you have made. If you are not obeying God's will for your life, than you have *chosen* not to do so. > On the other hand, if it is not in man's nature to make the right choice > then we STILL don't have free will. Its like telling a full-grown lion > that he has it in his power to make a choice between desiring yummmy > bloody meat, or straw (yech). Clearly it is not in his nature to make > a choice of this sort. It would be unfair to expect anything else of > him then to go out and hunt down his food on the hoof. > Which means we really DON'T have any choices to make of our own free will. We can make the right choice. It may not be in our own nature, but is in within our ability. The Spirit makes this choice possible. And all men have access to the Spirit sometime in their life. > Let's assume that God said, "ALL deserve to die... and I'm > going to give Ken Nichols the gun that is going to kill all of > you." > > I'm glad God does not give man things like these to do. I > doubt that I could do such a thing. > > But you already HAVE. By consciously advocating and aiding such > behavior, you have sinned as much as if you had pulled the trigger > yourself. By giving man free will, God HAS given men "things like > these to do." He certainly gave Christ things to do that Christ had no > choice in. He also told Abraham to kill his own son, so don't look > aghast when he asks YOU to do something contrary to your image of God. What sinfull behavior do I advocate and aid? If you can show me in the Bible the sin which I am committing, I will certainly take your statement into account. However, I do not see anything in the Bible that speaks to this. Nor do I feel the Holy Spirit convicting me of sin, as I would in the case of any other sin. > God, however, created us, and can take any life He gave away. > > I gave my childern life, but that doesn't give me the right to take it > away from them for any reason. And I wouldn't, because I love them too > much. That's the kind of love and respect that your God manages to avoid > although its what he advocates. You did not give any life to your children. You might have given them some of your chromosomes, but certainly not any life. God gives all life. God gave your children life, and is intrusting their lives into your hand. He can take that life away as fast as He created it. I don't mean to be cruel here, but it is the truth. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son . . ." > Those who chose not to follow will not escape punishment. I > wish I could be nicer about it, but that's what it says in the > Bible. > > And that's the ONLY statement that you have made that can be given any > real creedence... "but that's what it says in the Bible." All the truth that I know comes from the Bible. I do not pretend or propose that I have any other source of truth. > And just what ARE you going to tell the mothers of the > sons who are condemned? How do you intend to console > them? How would you feel if God condemned your best > friend, or your spouse? Only a monster would advocate > putting people to death because of their supposed > inability to fulfill a particular creed or belief. > > I would tell the mothers how they could be saved from the > judgement to come. It wouldn't be easy, but I would have to. > > I was refering to the mothers who had ALREADY been accepted into heaven, > and their sons who had already been condemned to the eternal fires. > How can you possibly convince them that THEY deserve heaven, but > their sons and daughters did not? I guess that just about raps it up > for Peter too. Peter, who betrayed Christ THREE TIMES, yet upon whom > Christ said he would build his church! If the mothers had already been accepted into heaven, there would be no reason to explain anything. They would be so wrapped up in the person of Jesus Christ, that nothing else would matter. They were intrusted with their childrens lives just as you are. They had the opportunity to teach them about Christ. If they didn't, they failed in a very important area. No one *deserves* heaven. We are not righteous enough to make it. "All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God." At salvation, we are clothed, as it were, with Christ's righteousness. This is what makes us worthy to enter into heaven. Therefore, if the mothers had accepted Christ, and His righteousness, they would be worthy. If their children hadn't, than they would be judged according to the knowledge of God that they possesed. Peter believed that Christ was God's son and the Messiah, and that faith in Christ is what saved Him. He was still human, and had faults. He was forgiven for the sin before he even commited it. God allowed this test into his life to show him that he couldn't stand on his own strength. It is abvious that by the time the Holy Spirit came on the Day of Pentecost, Peter no longer relied on his own strength. Christ was speaking of Himself when He said "...and on this rock I will build My Church.". Look at the Greek. The word for "Peter" in the greek is translated stone. The word that Christ used for rock in the greek is boulder, like on the side of a cliff. In the land of Isreal at that time there were flat top rocks that would lie almost flat with the ground. This is the kind of rock that is used in the parable of the wise man and the foolish man. People used to build their houses on these huge rocks. The same word is used when Christ makes the above statement. He is the rock or foundation that the church would be built on. Peter would be a stone or building block for the church. He certainly was not the foundation of the church, but he was a great support stone, if you will. In the same way, today God can use small, insignificant people for great tasks the way he used Peter (a small man in human standards) to procaim the greatest story ever told. > People are not the automatons that you think they are. They WILL > object if they have any spirit or love of life left in them! > It would be a dreary world-to-come indeed if it were filled with > such non-humans. But let me guess... God will wipe away all > dissent... I think the problem you have here is your concept of what God's control in a person's life is like. Not to boast here, but I feel controled at certain times by the Spirit of God. Usually when I'm posting articles. I do not turn into a mindless automaton, as you suggest. I still have emotions, fears etc.. And I still have a love of life! In fact, I feel that I would love life alot less if I didn't have Christ controlling me. I would hate to live in today's sin torn world without any hope of future glory, and no one greater than I to turn to when no one else can help. Of course many people have no problem with this. They just keep their fears and worries deep inside until the day they die with cancer or ulcers or heart disease. Of course now I've made it sound like God is my crutch. Well I have a surprise for you, HE ISN'T, but I wish He were. I wish I relied on Him *more* than I do now. I wish I could find His patience and strength in my own life even *more* than I do now. I wish I could put away my own desires, and just follow His will. At the same time I don't let all that bother me because I know He is not finished with me yet. People reject God only because they need a way to justify their sin, and so they pretend that God and their own sin don't exist. They do not reject because they have a love of life. If they loved life and wanted to live it the way it was meant to be lived, they would come with open arms to God! > God only condemns those that choose not to obey. He is > justified in this. > > You haven't shown us WHY he is justified in doing so. Its one thing to > say that the Bible tells us it is so and that God has the power to do > so. But it is quite a different matter to tell us that somehow only > God has the right to take away life. Your arguments are all quickly > boiling down to Biblical infallibility. The Bible is my source of external truth as I have said before. I can only speak the truth about Christ. The Spirit is the one that can open up your heart and mind to it. > Your last sentence is again showing the pride I was speaking of > earlier. You are to proud to believe something that doesn't > make perfect sense to you. > > Wrong... I don't believe in YOU Mr. Nichols. I doesn't matter whether you beleive me or not. The issue is whether you beleive what God has said in His word and proclaimed in creation, and written in your heart. The issue is whether or not you will accept Christ sacrifice for your sins. The issue is whether you will die in your sins, or live your life impowered by the Holy Spirit. THAT is the issue. I couldn't care less what you think of me. > Like other fired-up believers you are so quick to label me, and then > tell me what all of my faults are. I have commented only upon what YOU > have freely disclosed to the net. My innermost beliefs have never been > disclosed, although you are quick to make judgement on them. Please > tell us more... you might include my most passionate beliefs along with > major faults and a quick sketch of my overall behavior. I have only pointed out two things about you personally. Your need for Christ because of your sin (we all have sinned). And your refusal to beleive because of pride. Pride is a very obvious thing when speaking about God to someone. People say, "But I want to do this, or beleive such and such, etc." They become so wrapped up in their own desires that they don't see what God desires for their lives. I see that I have offended you. Maybe I shouldn't have posted such a personal statement to the net. For that I am sorry. I did not detect as much pride in this article as I saw in the last. I beleive you are honestly searching, although your skeptisism is hard to get through. > Don't be too quick to judge others. Many have entertained angels and not > realized it. Entertainment is a good word for it too. I do not think I have to worry about any angels appearing in this newsgroup :-). > I don't desire death... > > You desire eternal punishment and death for people, not for the sin. Man and sin are connected with a tie that cannot be broken by anyone but God. Only He can take the sin away from the man, so that the man can be free from it. > God is not a man, that you can pin Him down with human terms. > > God IS a man... his name is Jesus Christ. This is not a dictatorial > God who bellows orders and expects them to be obeyed... he is a God > who was willing to tell us WHY he does the things he does and to listen > to man's comments. Why do you think that Christ spent so much time > talking WITH people, huh? I can think of a number of times when Jesus Christ told someone that there was no need for them to know something, or that he wouldn't tell them. He wouldn't tell His disciples when His second comming would be. God does not reveal His whole self to us. If He did, there would be red corpusals on the moon. God may listen to man's comments, but He still expects His word to be obeyed. God does not change His mind. I don't think you will be able to convince God that you should be allowed into His heaven even though you didn't want to follow His plan as laid out in the Bible. Christ spent time talking with people to show them His love. And to tell them the way of truth. When the Jews did not beleive, He condemned them for it. He didn't tell them it would be alright, that there system was good enough, etc. He might have listened to them but He didn't condon their religouos system. > If God REALLY wants us to know him, then he had better expect a lot of > "rebellious" questions. If he wants obedience, then he should raise > the stones up as sons of Abraham... obedient to his law and word. You actually think that God should cater to your wishes? Just who do you think you are? God has proved Himself over and over in the Bible. He has done quite enough. No more evidence is necessary. If you refuse to beleive the evidence that is given now, you would also refuse any other evidence. Yes, and Satan asked Christ to turn stones into bread, but He wouldn't do that either. And Satan is quite a bit more powerfull than you. Christ told Him that He was only to obey His father's word. Do you now expect Him to obey your wishes? > Not genocide, justice. Men deserve whatever they get. > > Thus is the punishment for those rebel scum that dare to defy > the Empire! After all, it's the empire that calls the shots in this > galaxy... and if you don't obey, you deserve whatever you get. > That includes having you planet and all of your people fried. But the Empire (if I may expound on your analogy) did not love the Rebels. God does! He has provided a way of escape. He provided it through His own Son. This is where your analogy falls apart. Why do you not wish to obey a loving God? The only reason I can see is pride. This is where I see the pride. If it isn't pride, then what is it? Why don't you want to obey a God that has a wonderfull, loving plan for your life? > For a wise and wonderfull God why does he have to throw out the > baby with the bath-water? To fulfill some hateful need of > man's I suspect. > > God did dispose of the sin. Jesus Christ's death on the cross > took that sin away. All God asks is that we accept that gift, > and serve Him with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength. > > God apparently did not dispose of the sin for those that are to be condemned > to hell... or are those only the screams of sins I hear down there? So my > original question remains unanswered... why can he see fit to take away > your sin, but not that of someone even though he is unwilling. After all, > he's a perfect and all-powerful God... he can do ANYTHING. Because God is not Santa Claus. He does not cater to your every desire. We must come to God with an attitude of humility. Again here, pride seems to stand in the way. Men want God to accept them on *their* terms. And they feel justified in their rebeliousness when He doesn't do so. THAT IS PRIDE!! > Also, you have failed to show HOW Jesus Christ's dying on the cross, > in ANY way shape or form takes away sin... unless it is simply a > ritual slaughter... in which case it STILL doesn't explain why God > cannot take away sin without killing off the man. A few hours on > the cross doesn't seem like compensatory damages to me. Sacrifices our necessary for the forgivness of sins. Why? Because that is what God set up. It may not be logical, but it is God's law. The sacrifices in the Old Testemant were performed by Jewish Priests. These sacrifices only covered up for sin. Why? Because they were sinners themselves. Christ was sinless. But was punished by God on the cross for our sins. In this way, the penalty for sin was taken care of. Now all man has to do is accept this gift of sacrifice for sin, and acknowledge the creator of the universe who loves him, and he will be saved. Sound to simple, right. Well, that's the beauty of it. It is simple. It is man who tries to complicate it. To make it logical. Why? So that when he figures it out, it appeals to his sense of pride. "Why look," he says, "I found the way to God. I logically deduced such and such, and did such and such, and now *I'm* going to heaven." He's so proud of it. This is why God did it all. We only have to beleive it, not figure it out. > Pride has nothing to do with it. You can't accept the fact > that your God might be wrong, so your knee-jerk reaction is to > label any and all objections as "prideful man's" response. How > neat and tidy. > > You want to be right, so you call Him wrong, is this your aim? > > No... I want the truth, so I call YOU wrong. As Pilot said, "What is truth?" Well, Christ said He was the truth. He is the essence of all that truth is. Christ was truth in bodily form. If you want the truth, then you want Christ. So why won't you take Him? > Sounds just like pride to me. > > It sounds like pride to you because you label everyone as being > caught up in their own pride. Your problem is that you have taken > up a belief which you are now trying to defend with whatever > evidence fits your already preconcieved notions. Now if you REALLY > wanted to know the truth, you would form your beliefs based UPON > the evidence. That's the way of the truth. I *have* taken into account all the evidence of the Bible, etc. What is your evidence?? Science? Humanism? Pride??? > Your entire article is a classic example of a prideful > christian taking great pleasure from the thought that > the world will one day be purged of all forms of life > not conforming to a particular belief. > > The world will be purged of sin, and those who run in sin. > > Do I really need to draw parallels with Adolph Hitler here? Yes? Hitler was probably possesed by a demon sent by Satan. Since Isreal is God's chosen nation, Satan hates the Jews. He tried to use Hitler to destroy the Jewish nation. Thank God we had the sense to stop him. God, however, is perfectly righteous. He sees sin and cannot fellowship with it because of His holy nature. Although He is very patient, not wanting any to perish, He must close the books someday, and those who have not beleived will not be let off the hook because you wish it so. There is no parallel. > What will I lose if God doesn't exist? Not much. > > You will have lost everything that makes life worthwhile. You will > have, in fact, squandered your life on foolishness. By insisting that > this life is worth ____ and the next life will be infinitly better, you > not only run the risk of piddling this life away and staring into the > depths of oblivion upon your death; but you also run the risk of > offending a God, for whom you have claimed to speak for. I *have* everything that makes this life worthwhile. A knowledge of my creator. A purpose *in this life*. A peace about my future. And many other blessing that I received from the hand of God at salvation. What do you have? I won't speculate because I might offend you needlessly. You are the one staring into the depths of oblivion (or worse). I know where I am going and I know who is going to be there waiting for me. And it isn't St. Peter, it's Christ. I have declared the *whole* person of God. Some of which is not spoken of as much anymore because people might be offended. God is probably more offended by those who claim to know Him and yet only know half of His whole person. They only see the goody, goody side of God, while ignoring His holiness and wrath. I do not accuse you of this, because you do not claim to know God. I am not speaking directly of anyone. > You, on the other hand, stand to lose alot if you God does > exist, and you have not obeyed His word. > > Oh do *I* (on the hand of the goats) stand to loose a lot now? As if > YOU (Ken Nicholls) spokesperson for God in any way knew my innermost > beliefs and thoughts. Such arrogance! Such shallow appraisal! After > all, you wouldn't be giving such warnings to other believers, so I MUST > be a sinner, right? > > - John I only know your attitudes about God as far as you have shared them. It was enough for me to say the above statement without feeling I was doing anything wrong. You can still be saved. I'm not condeming you to hell. It is still your choice. We are all sinners, not just you. Those who have obeyed His word have accepted the gift of Jesus Christ and have had their sins forgiven. If you still have not when Christ returns, you could stand to lose alot. I'm not being arrogant, I just calls 'em how I sees 'em. :-) -- "...holding forth the Ken Nichols word of life..." Phil. 2:16 ...!ucbvax!dual!qantel!ken -----------------------