daf@ccice6.UUCP (Amphibian Defender) (11/10/84)
> Ken's sentence would be more complete if it > said "there is nothing that a man can do to save himself *by himself*." My question is a digression from the original discussion. A man can do nothing to save himself by himself. A man who has sinned his whole life can be saved at the last minute by accepting Christ and trusting in his mercy. Doesn't this imply that a Christian never really needs to do anything good and is free to be as evil as he feels, as long as he repents before dying? CURIOUS
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (11/11/84)
> A man who has sinned his whole life can be saved at the > last minute by accepting Christ and trusting in his mercy. > Doesn't this imply that a Christian never really needs to do > anything good and is free to be as evil as he feels, as long > as he repents before dying? Good question. My personal feeling is that such a plan of repentance is such a bald-faced attempt to avoid one's obligations that it's hard to see how it could ever be legitimate. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
pellegri@ittral.UUCP (Dan Pellegrino) (11/12/84)
> A man who has sinned his whole life can be saved at the > last minute by accepting Christ and trusting in his mercy. > Doesn't this imply that a Christian never really needs to do > anything good and is free to be as evil as he feels, as long > as he repents before dying? God will forgive those that are TRULY repentant, regardless of the type or magnitude of their sin. By TRULY repentant, I mean from one's heart (not the blood-pumping organ). It is man who looks at the outer appearance. God looks at the heart. Insincere word or actions do not fool God. I don't think that one who commits premeditated sin throughout one's life, intending to cash-in on God's mercy later, would be TRULY repentant. God cannot be conned and there are no loop holes in His commands. God knows the heart of each of us, he knows our every intention. Another point is that there will be the time when every person must stand before the judgement seat of Christ and give account of his actions. Judgement will be made based upon the knowledge that the person had at the time of the particular action being judged. Two may have sinned in the same manner - one with full knowledge of his sin and another in ignorance. Each has indeed sinned but the one with knowledge is far more accountable. Those who knowingly sin and try to pull one over on God are in for a big surprise. They are definitely playing way out of their league. Dan Pellegrino ittvax!ittral!sysdev!pellegri
jnelson@trwrba.UUCP (John T. Nelson) (11/17/84)
> > Doesn't this imply that a Christian never really needs to do > > anything good and is free to be as evil as he feels, as long > > as he repents before dying? > > Good question. My personal feeling is that such a plan of repentance > is such a bald-faced attempt to avoid one's obligations that it's hard > to see how it could ever be legitimate. > > Charley Wingate I absolutely agree... IF repentence is treated as a PLAN to attain salvation. When treated as such such, repentence becomes a mechanical thing and denies both the meaning of repentence and the purpose of life on earth. Repentence is the act of turning away from those things that you know are wrong. Interestingly enough it is the dedicated sinner who will more than likely benifit from last-minute repentence since, upon seeing God, he will throw away all of those long-cherished, yet false, attitudes and beliefs (much like the lame man throwing away his crutches) and accept God totally. Why shouldn't he? He has so little to loose and so much to gain.... if he is receptive to the idea. And he will probably be able to identify his sins if they are blatent enough. Ahhh! But what of the self-righteous man who "knows" in his heart that he is good and will be saved? Or what of the man who gives lip-service to repentence yet still clings to notions that are not true? This scenario was made excruciatingly obvious when Christ pointed out the differences between how the pillars of the community prayed, and how the tax collectors prayed. Both were obedient to the letter of the law, but only one will be saved.... the one that cherished honesty foremost. This brings up the purpose of repentence here and now (as opposed to the last-minute act). Repentence and introspection help you deny all of those false gods and beliefs. It is not so much a magical and ritual act that cleanses you.... the realization of your sin is the cleansing. By the way, the word "sin" has become greatly abused in our culture so you should read "deviating from what is right" here. The dedicated sinner who has left behind him a wake of transgretions thus takes up a position higher than that of even the most obedient and observant believer... but only if he can tear himself away from his past. In some ways this means admiting that you are no better than shit and placing yourself entirely and wholesale in the hands of Christ. But repentence without realization of one's true nature is lip-service all the same so don't be fooled into thinking that you can learn such concepts without direct experience and therefore claim to believe them... Belief requires experience and not the parroting of some litany. Now, what of the more subtle sins? Must we REALLY have knowledge of our sins to repent from them? What of those who really DO NOT have the capacity to extracate themselves from the grips of falsehood and sin even though they may believe what they do to be good? Well that's where our efforts end and the grace of God begins. - John