[net.religion] To Ken Arndt on To Andy Banta

agz@pucc-k (Andrew Banta) (11/28/84)

> Can you explain to me why you are not caught in your own web?  That is, you
> set out rules on who to tolerate and who not to tolerate.  But why should we
> follow YOUR rules?  "those who hurt only themselves are ok or those who hurt
> others are not"  I mean who are YOU to say what is right and what is wrong?

They aren't my rules!  I didn't make them up, I simply relayed them.  As
far as I'm concerned, they make sense, and I'd like to know what your
major objection to them are.  Do you want it so you can go out and hurt
someone just because that's your whim? Or have them hurt you?  It seems
that if you start pushing your values on other people, though, you're
infringing on their free choice.

> You God?  You got the bomb? You got 51% on your side?

Gee, I didn't realize I needed these to voice an opinion.  Is that the
way your net works, Ken?

> Where DO morals come from?  You seem to be saying you can tell but why THOSE 
> morals and not others?  Nature seems to say it's ok to hurt others in the
> effort to survive, doesn't it?  Is Nature a source of values?  Is reason?
> Is wishes?  Is Tradition?  Is Andy Banta?

And just what would your ideal morals set up?  That everyone has to
agree with YOU!  If you'll notice, my suggestions doesn't say that you
have to agree with everything I do.  If you want to do something that I
don't, I'm not going to legislate against you for "hurting yourself".
This seems to be what you want, though.

> Sounds to me like you throw out God with the bath water but want to keep the
> "Christian", etc. "Golden Rule" type jive without anyone's particular religion

If that's the way you want to put it, YES.  What's your complaint?
What's wrong with taking the morals that make sense and disposing of the
restrictive ones?

> I think you have a horse terd for a brain.  Another sweet sleeper in 
> Phil.101., Ethics 101, etc.

My, what seems to be the problem, Ken?  You don't figure your arguments
hold enough water on their own?  You have to supplement them with grade
school insults?

> Why don't you be honest and come right out and say that you're making it all
> up because YOU like it?  Either there ARE morals that have value in all times
> and all cases, "Thou shalt not murder", given by a higher "authority" than us
> and therefore not subject to our whims and interpretations, or there are not.

You're right, I like it. You're WRONG, I didn't make them up!  Those are
the values that make the most sense.  "I don't want to be killed,
therefore I won't kill."  Seems simple enough to me.  Now tell me I
needed some "higher" authority to tell me this.

> If there are not then stand back and join the biggest group or grab the 
> sharpest weapon to enforce your ideas because they feel good to you.

Rather contradictory, don't you think ...

> But to mouth a silly system built on nothing is only fooling yourself.  
> Now your ideas are not unique to you.  Others have attempted to build 
> a moral structure in the air.  But it lacks a base to stand up to other 
> "pie in the sky" moral systems and ends up with everyone saying, "Who 
> are YOU to say".

I don't think I'm building this in the air.  It seems to be
approximately what the US gov't subscribes to.  Not entirely, but most
of the way.  Unfortunately, it now appears that a certain small segment
of people want to make this into a "Christian country", a scary thought,
indeed.

> If only you yonks would look up morals in the Ency. of Phil. or a couple of
> good texts in the "horrors" library you would see that this is a question 
> that has belabored great minds for a long long time.  Some "solutions" have
> been found wanting and some progress has been made. In any case you sound like
> you haven't read a thing.  (now tell me you are a phil. major)

I have to admit that I haven't read exactly what you've read.  But then
again, why should someone have to research something fully to make it
right for them.  It's pretty obvious that Christianity is the same way
...


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Andy Banta			{decvax!allegra!ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-k!agz
Dept. of Mental Instability, Purdue University --- "I'm OK, You're a CS Major"
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