[net.religion] Christianity and its Relationship to... specifically Judaism

yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (10/30/84)

Confining myself only to the area of the relationship of Judaism
and Christianity in Charlie's article, there are some areas which
have been disputed and unanswered in previous articles and which
have apparently been presumed here again.

There are no grounds for Charlie to make any claims or assertions 
regarding Judaism vis-a-vis Christianity. While there is contro-
versy around the net among Christians regarding any given Christian's
knowledge of Christianity, there should be no question that the
Christian does not know Judaism and is, therefore, unqualified
to make such statements about it. Christians should not pretend
to speak for Judaism. That is for Jews, and Jews only, to do.

There are basically two statements which, in my opinion, are
unjustified and in error. 

1) 'Christianity does not in and of itself deny ANY other religion;
in particular, it invests Judaism with a certain validity (although
it claims to supercede it)."

All of modern Christianity sprang from the early Roman Catholic
church and the church fathers mentioned by such writers as
Eusebius. And the basis of this Christianity is documented as
being based upon the premises that the CHURCH is the TRUE
ISRAEL and CHRISTIANS are the TRUE JEWS. That makes us im-
posters and deceivers and blasphemers for calling ourselves
Jews. Now this is documented history whether you like it or
not or whether you agree with it or not. (Read Parkes...
PLEASE.) This has been the grounds for repeated persecutions, 
and antisemitism which is evident in Christianity in this 
country at this very moment. I have personally heard the 
assertion that the church is the TRUE ISRAEL and that 
Christians are the TRUE JEWS and that we should therefore 
'be taken care of'. This position was taken on the Donahue 
show a year or so ago (a different show than the one I 
recently chronicled on the net.) Trying to gloss
over the problem and sugar coat it does not make it go
away, it only makes it al the more insidious. 

Christianity depends upon the assumption that it has indeed
'superceded' Judaism - and that means that Judaism is now
obsolete - because Christ 'saved' you from keeping Torah.
At that time, our religion wasn't even called Judaism, it
was called the Way of Torah which you are supposedly now
saved from. Trying to put new clothes on this old notion
now doesn't change it one iota. Claiming that Judaism has
been 'superceded' and/or that it is obsolete certainly
denies its validity. The fact remains that Judaism states
that Christ did NOT replace Torah and 'saves' no one from
the responsibility of trying to keep Torah, so if you do 
not deny Judaism, then abandon your Christian paganism and
make tracks to an orthodox synagogue to clean up your
act like Judaism teaches.

2) 'One question we must ask, therefore, is whether or not
other religions can be harmonized with Christianity.'

Ask not whether other religions can be harmonized with
Christianity, ask rather whether Christianity can be
harmonized with other religions. At least from the
standpoint of Judaism, we are not going to harmonize
with you. Tolerance is one thing, 'harmonizing' is 
something else again. If you want to harmonize, then
align yourself with Judaism, don't expect us to align 
ourselves with you because it isn't going to happen - ever. 
(It will happen that you will eventually come over to us 
according to the prophecies which you appropriate from us. 
That's neither here nor there except to demonstrate that 
our perspective is quite different from yours.) Charlie
wisely posed the question rather than make an assertion.
I submit that the answer from Judaism is a resounding,
unequivocal, and non-negotiable 'no', coupled with a plea 
for tolerance of each religion for the other while under-
standing that they are irremediably incompatible and
mutually exclusive. Simply because the Christian does
not UNDERSTAND the objections from Judaism does not
mean they are not there. You still don't have to
persecute us, condescend to us, be arrogant toward us,
placate us, presume your rightness and our wrongness
outside your own circles, etc. In fact, in the area of
tolerance, you COULD even become active in ostracizing
your peers who are intolerant of us (as some of you
are trying to do). 

garys@bunker.UUCP (Gary M. Samuelson) (11/01/84)

Yirmiyahu BenDavid says:

> There are no grounds for Charlie to make any claims or assertions 
> regarding Judaism vis-a-vis Christianity. While there is contro-
> versy around the net among Christians regarding any given Christian's
> knowledge of Christianity, there should be no question that the
> Christian does not know Judaism and is, therefore, unqualified
> to make such statements about it. Christians should not pretend
> to speak for Judaism. That is for Jews, and Jews only, to do.

Is it likewise improper for non-Christians to pretend to speak
about Christianity?

Gary Samuelson
bunker!garys

rsk@stat-l (Rich Kulawiec (Vombatus Hirsutus)) (11/02/84)

> From: yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid)
> Newsgroups: net.religion
> Subject: Christianity and its Relationship to... specifically Judaism
> 
> While there is controversy around the net among Christians regarding any
> given Christian's knowledge of Christianity, there should be no question
> that the Christian does not know Judaism and is, therefore, unqualified
> to make such statements about it. Christians should not pretend
> to speak for Judaism. That is for Jews, and Jews only, to do.

	Why, then, do *you* proceed to make comments about Christianity? 

	It's a short extrapolation from your argument to "Anthropologists
should not comment on Masai society; that's for the Masai to do", a similarly
ridiculous statement.
-- 
---Rsk

UUCP: { decvax, icalqa, ihnp4, inuxc, sequent, uiucdcs  } !pur-ee!rsk
      { decwrl, hplabs, icase, psuvax1, siemens, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk

yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/02/84)

I frequently speak to the issues of the historicitiy and/or factuality
of Christian assertions. I do not speak for Christianity.

yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/04/84)

I'm not informed on the Masai society... and have no particular desire
to be. If you think you know more about Jewish society and/or Judaism
than the Jews however, you are a presumptuous, arrogant and, worse than
that, ignorant.

Since my information regarding Christianity
1) comes from a formerly observant, religious and knowledgeable
Christian who has converted to Judaism, his comments certainly are
qualified
2) has defied any logical disputation, there seems to be no apparent
basis for disregarding it simply because you can't find any other
answer.

brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (11/06/84)

> Gary Samuelson
> Is it likewise improper for non-Christians to pretend to speak
> about Christianity?

Well, in this country, it is far more likely that a non-Christian will
know much more about Christianity than a non-Jew will know about Judiaism.
Many (if not most) non-Christians here grew up surrounded by a Christian
culture, often as close as the family.

Richard Brower		Fortune Systems
{ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower

mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (11/08/84)

In article <1654@ucf-cs.UUCP> yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) writes:

>  I'm not informed on the Masai society... and have no particular desire
>  to be. If you think you know more about Jewish society and/or Judaism
>  than the Jews however, you are a presumptuous, arrogant and, worse than
>  that, ignorant.
>  
>  Since my information regarding Christianity
>  1) comes from a formerly observant, religious and knowledgeable
>  Christian who has converted to Judaism, his comments certainly are
>  qualified
>  2) has defied any logical disputation, there seems to be no apparent
>  basis for disregarding it simply because you can't find any other
>  answer.

Tell us more about this source of yours, Yirmiyahu.  Was he Catholic,
Baptist, Episcopalian, Coptic?  And I'm not sure I would consider an
apostate as a reliable source.  Christianity is at least as diverse as
Judaism, from my admittedly limited experience.

Perhaps you should read some of the great modern theologians.  How about
Reinhold Neibuhr, or Dietrich Bonhoeffer (who died in a Nazi prizon for
your race, incidentally), or, if you refuse to listen to Christians,
Martin Heidegger  [sp?], or if that is too difficult, _The Road Less
Travelled_ by M. Scott Peck.  My point is that if you want to take
potshots at the theology of Christianity, you should get better information.

While I'm at it, I would like to point out that I do not attack Judaism in
the same way that Yirmiyahu attacks christianity.  I do not claim to be a
great expert on Judaism; in any case, I am not going to engage in wanton
attacks against it.  I find it amusing, and a little disturbing, that 
Yirmiyahu is engaging in exactly the sort of intolerant abusive attacks  that
he accuses all christians of.

Charley  Wingate      umcp-cs!mangoe

rsk@stat-l (Rich Kulawiec) (11/12/84)

	Round 1:

> From: yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid)
> 
> While there is controversy around the net among Christians regarding any
> given Christian's knowledge of Christianity, there should be no question
> that the Christian does not know Judaism and is, therefore, unqualified
> to make such statements about it. Christians should not pretend
> to speak for Judaism. That is for Jews, and Jews only, to do.

	Round 2:

> From: rsk@stat-l (Rich Kulawiec (Vombatus Hirsutus))
>	Why, then, do *you* proceed to make comments about Christianity? 
>
>	It's a short extrapolation from your argument to "Anthropologists
> should not comment on Masai society; that's for the Masai to do", a similarly
> ridiculous statement.

	Round 3:

> From: yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid)
> 
> I'm not informed on the Masai society... and have no particular desire
> to be. If you think you know more about Jewish society and/or Judaism
> than the Jews however, you are a presumptuous, arrogant and, worse than
> that, ignorant.

	Round 4:

	Well, let's apply your standard, Yiri, since you obviously missed the
point that I made by using the Masai example.

	If you demand that anyone who is non-Jewish refrain from commenting on
Judaism, can the rest of us demand that you refrain from commenting on anything
non-Judaic?  or perhaps, anything not in Florida?  or further, anything not
at UCF?

	Y'know, you certainly have already assumed quite a bit here. For one,
you've assumed that I'm not Jewish.  Secondly, you've assumed that commenting
on Judaism implies that the commentator feels more informed than those he is
commentating on.  And thirdly, you've assumed that such commentary carries with
it an overtone of hostility.

	Are you prepared to back those assumptions up?
-- 
Rich Kulawiec @ Purdue University Computing Center
{ decvax, ihnp4, uiucdcs } !pur-ee!rsk & { decwrl, hplabs, ucbvax } !purdue!rsk

dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (11/13/84)

> 
> There are no grounds for Charlie to make any claims or assertions 
> regarding Judaism vis-a-vis Christianity. While there is contro-
> versy around the net among Christians regarding any given Christian's
> knowledge of Christianity, there should be no question that the
> Christian does not know Judaism and is, therefore, unqualified
> to make such statements about it. Christians should not pretend
> to speak for Judaism. That is for Jews, and Jews only, to do.

*Any* Jew knows more about Judaism than *any* Christian?  Quite a
statement, and, I think, untrue, for I have met Jews who knew a
*lot* less about their own religion than I do.  (However, in the
main, of course, Yiri's statement is accurate - most Christians
know very little about Judaism.  It's a shame.  I don't know all
*that* much, but what I do know I have a great appreciation for.)
-- 
Paul DuBois		{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois

safern@aecom.UUCP (Eric Safern) (11/29/84)

> *Any* Jew knows more about Judaism than *any* Christian?  Quite a
> statement, and, I think, untrue, for I have met Jews who knew a
> *lot* less about their own religion than I do....

Maybe that's why Jewish population of America is declining...