yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/30/84)
From david@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) Sun Feb 6 01:28:16 206 Subject: His brother's keeper What do you say, Yirmiyahu Ben-David? There is a a man would put his other foot in the same shoe. And his mouth is big enough for both. But is this kosher? We are informed, by you, that you are a scholar of Jewish tradition, of the history of Christianity, of ancient Hebrew and Greek, of computer science, of logic, and of many other things. ************************* * Yiri responds: * Kindly document. I see only babbling assertions. ************************* Elsewhere, you have also elected to disclose that you are a "Mesnan" (sic), which name is perhaps derived, as you might have it, from the uncorrupted Aramaic name of Mensa, "the high IQ society". I suppose that this much, or more perhaps, could have only been expected of you. You will forgive me if I may fail to mention something about you which would otherwise disqualify your views. ************************* * Yiri responds: * If you have something, out with it. Otherwise, quit babbling. ************************* However, perhaps you would elect to disqualify your- self to be a Jew. Surely, we should not prejudge an important conclusion -- we may see for ourselves what you are. I can say that none of my friends would go on and on publicly, full of insults and accusations, boasting about themselves. Of course, most of my friends are Jews who have something better to do. ************************* * Yiri responds: * If you have something other than idle assertions, let's * have them. Otherwise you are taking a lot of space to * babble. ************************* Nevertheless, you would have us presume that you are a faithful Jew. Then you would prove, to your own satis- faction, that Christians are counterfeit something-or-other, and that, by comparison with you personally, we are godless and insufferable fools. Instead, you have elected to disclose something else ... again and again ... about yourself. ************************** * Yiri responds: * Where are my boastings about myself, my boastings that I am * a faithful Jew? Where do I compare myself personally? And * what is all this nonsense about disclosing 'something else ... * again and again ...' about myself? You sound like someone * harboring a lot of hatred and bitterness because someone * has pointed out real flaws in your ideas... but you can't * find any solutions to those flaws so your only recourse is * to lash out personally. Knock yourself out.... but you'll * have to do it by yourself. I'm not interested in debate * unless it stands to help someone... and I don't see your * level of contribution helping anybody or anything. I see * only hatred and bitterness without any other objective. *************************** Of course, you personally have nothing to do with Christianity, just as it has nothing to do with your obsessions with imaginary Jews and their writings, murderous Gentiles, or who redacted what when where how why. *************************** * Yiri responds: * It is correct that I have nothing to do with Christianity. * Your assertion that Bagatti, Parkes and others simply * 'dreamed up' these 'imaginary' N'tzarim Jews is assinine. * As for 'murderous gentiles', that is YOUR description, I * simply inform you of what scholars, even Christian scholars, * have conceded. Again, I see no point to your ramblings other * than pure vitriol. ************************** So you think you know something? So you have read Bagatti and Parkes; and you would make them out to say that Jesus is an anti-christ. But that is *your* notion of "Jesus", a straw man, that resembles no one else's imaginings, whether they are Christian or not. Only God knows what you may have concluded from reading Hansel and Gretel, as well. *************************** * Yiri responds: * *YOU* make *ME* OUT TO SAY Bagatti and Parkes etc. That is not * what I said. There are a bunch of you out there who have an * attraction for perverting people's words and twisting what * they said into what you want it to mean. That's how you * translate scriptures too!!! I have outlined what Parkes and * Bagatti say in an earlier article. And any reader can read * them and confirm that. The two conclusions which follow are * readily seen from the premises WHICH ARE SUPPORTED BY Parkes * and Bagatti. *************************** If you have noticed that none of us, except for yourself, fully understand what we profess to believe, or that racial and religious intolerance is everywhere, or that our traditions are all too human, and far from the Gospel, then move to the head of your class. But if you believe that Y'shua was a good-old-boy, who was lynched in effigy by the murderous Gentiles, well then, you simply don't know your right hand from your left. Neither do you know what is in your hands. **************************** * Yiri responds: * Your 'New Testament' records that Y'shua was executed by the * Romans - gentiles. Any reputable history scholar familiar with * that period will tell you that the Jews did not have the * authority under Roman rule to carry out a death sentence and * that Jewish law was not recognized as grounds for execution * under Roman law. You can wear the dunce cap. **************************** You see, Yiri -- the foundation stone is not in your hands; neither is it in the hands of the murderous Gentiles, nor of the Jews. For they are all in the hands of God. As for your hands, perhaps they are dirty. **************************** * Yiri responds: * Oy vey! **************************** The truth that Jesus is the eternal Christ, who is glorified by God, and that we are called to live as he did, is made known to us, only by the self-revelation of God. This is so that we may not boast about ourselves, as you do, but say, with the apostle Paul, that it is by the grace of God that we are what we are. Let us, then, give thanks to the Lord, that His mercy, in Christ, endures forever. **************************** * Yiri responds: * Begging the question is a logical fallacy... and that is what * you are doing by stating that 'the truth...'. It is not truth. * In fact, it is a deception and a counterfeit. I have shown * reasonable basis which even Christian scholars acknowledge as * truthful premises from which the conclusions are elementary. * You offer obvious logical flaws by begging the question. * You accuse me again of boasting about myself. Where? Provide * some documentation and evidence supporting your groundless * babblings or keep them to yourself and don't let everyone * else know how silly you are. To babble on about a counterfeit * without even finding grounds is a new low in foolishness. **************************** But we may also say, with Isaiah, "Who has believed our story, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" So you think you know something that none of us do? Indeed, all of us have a little knowledge; and not all of us are insufferable fools. So perhaps Y'shua was beside you, in the beginning, when God stumbled over the murderous Gentiles, and misplaced the foundation stone. Perhaps Y'shua did every- thing in parables, so that you, logically enough, could inter- pret these things for his dim-witted disciples. Perhaps Y'shua spoke in Aramaic, which you've compiled as Fortran. Perhaps Y'shua was made an honorary member of Mensa, upon your recom- mendation. ****************************** * Yiri responds: * I think Jewish scholars know the Jewish Bible a bit and that * you do not. I also think that non-Jews have no real grasp of * their misunderstandings of the Jewish Bible. You confirm that * suspicion. Remember please that it is YOU who assert these * things about me... these are not my assertions. Babble on! ******************************* Perhaps, Yiri, you just might have appeared, in glory, to Paul on his way to Damascus, in order to set the record straight. It is Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, who said that one day the Jews would reclaim Jesus, as Christ, for their own, but he does not belittle the faith of the Gentiles. Moreover, it is Paul who has said, "I may know every hidden truth, and have faith strong enough to move mountains; but if I have no love, still I am nothing." Do you know more than Paul? Of course, you would seem to know everything, and to move the mountains, if not the heavens. Still, if you have no love, why would you pretend to be something? What do you say, Yirmiyahu Ben-David? Suppose there is a sheep that chews its cud in the pasture every day. But if the same sheep also urinates on itself every day, how can its fleece be whiter for this? Or suppose there is a weatherman who has received a certificate of instruction in meteorology. But if the same man plays his game of golf in the fog by day, and under the lightning by night, how can his handicap be less for this? No, the one is like the other -- they both will have missed the mark. For the one does not understand the scriptures, and the other does not understand the power of God. ************************ * Yiri responds: * I do indeed assert that you do not understand the scriptures * and have no grasp of the God of Isaiah, etc. I also assert * that you have no idea what 'Paul' is talking about for the * most part. If you are asserting that I do not understand the * power of God you have certainly judged my heart... and your * 'New Testament' defines your action as a sin. You'd best * repent. Further, whether or not I miss the mark doesn't seem * to be very helpful to you in your missing the mark... and * Christianity definitely misses the mark. Do the scriptures * not also say 'out of the mouthes of babes'? So whether I * miss the mark or have only the ability of an infant, the * information I have conveyed stands on its own and has nothing * to do with whether I play golf in the fog, and worse. You * really do hate don't you? ************************** You see, Yiri -- you would prove a thing, but you do not understand what that thing is. What you have proved, by your example, is that whether or not we are Y'shua's keeper, you are surely not his brother. *************************** * Yiri responds: * SHOW that I do not understand. Your assertion is completely * unsupported by ANYTHING. Your entire logic consists of begging * the question. One thing I can tell you... is that no Christian * is like the historical Y'shua. Any observant and religion Jew * you meet is FAR more like the historical Y'shua than any * Christian. *************************** I am, perhaps, respectfully yours, David Harwood *************************** * Yiri responds: * Respect? Where? That is classical hypocrisy. * At least what I offer I offer hoping there will be some benefit * * Thoughtfully and Sincerely, * * Yirmiyahu Ben-David ***************************