aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (11/16/84)
>> = me > = James Jones (ea!jejones) >> How do you explain the gifts of the Holy Spirit -- particularly the most >> common one, most commonly called "speaking in tongues"? How do you explain >> the fact that in May, 1972, a man laid his hands on me and prayed, and I >> received the ability to speak without conscious thought in a language I don't >> believe I've ever heard? And I'm not the only Christian of my acquaintance >> with this gift. > ... the point to make here is, as Rich Rosen has pointed out in the past, > people believe what they want to believe, or in this case, hear what they > want to hear. There was a fellow who did an experiment in which low-volume > random de garbage was played for people in a context where human speech > was expected. One of the subjects, a native of Eastern Europe, burst into > tears, and exclaimed that she'd never heard her mother tongue since she > was a child. The point I'm making is that I'm saying stuff I'm not consciously wanting to say. Really, my conscious mind can be thinking about some other topic while I'm speaking in tongues; the conscious mind is not driving the mouth at all. [Some might say this is true even when I'm speaking my native language. :-)] And what does that experiment prove? Only what you want to believe. All it says is that some random garbage can sound like some Eastern European language if it is not heard clearly. It does not disprove Christians' claims about speaking in tongues at all. > Andy Kaufman did glossolalia all the time as Latka Gravas. Again, the mere fact that it can be faked doesn't prove that it is always a fake. > how do you know it was a real language if you hadn't heard it? That's something I have to take on faith (why do so many people in this newsgroup have such contempt for faith?). I have noticed that at times when I am having an "ultimate psychotherapy" (intensive prayer) session, and I come to some part of myself that needs help but that I can't figure out how to pray through, I pray in tongues instead, and often I am enabled to see a solution to the problem. In other words, there is some indication that I am saying something that makes sense. Also, it isn't exactly random garbage; I've noticed similar words and sound patterns recurring over the years; it sounds as though it very likely could be a language. But I'm not sure, so let's take another example. Once Oral Roberts was conducting some sort of meeting where he preached, etc. After the main presentation, Roberts was with one particular man. Roberts began speaking in tongues. The man interrupted him and informed him that he (Roberts) was speaking in Hebrew, talking to God about the man and his soul, etc. The man was quite astounded and impressed when Roberts replied that he had never learned to speak Hebrew, and that his speech in Hebrew was entirely by the power of God. -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "I'm not asking for anyone's bleeding charity." "Then do. At once. Ask for the Bleeding Charity."
afo@pucc-k (Flidais) (11/17/84)
(five minutes, two seconds: much better...)
You know, one of the more fun things about being a psych student is
that you get to hear about all sorts of fun stuff about
'mind-over-matter' experiments. A good one, which apparently has
been used by frat men across the nation is that you blindfold
someone and tell them that you're going to brand them with a
white-hot branding iron. When the victim is sufficiently
hysterical, you touch his skin with an ice-cube. Appropriately
enough, the victim screams at the top of his lungs. Even more
interesting, is that sometimes the victim will produce blisters
appropriate for a second degree burn on his skin (which would not
happen if he had been burned as severely as stated by his
tormentors).
What is this all leading to, you might ask? Basically, if you get
someone in such a psychological state that he/she will believe anything
you will tell them, you can get them to do the most marvelous
things, like speaking in tongues. The human mind can convince
itself of all sorts of things on its own (check out Freud sometime,
he wasn't all bad). Especially a person with a great need to be
accepted, or to believe in *something* to help assague his lagging
faith in him/herself. If you can catch someone whose brain is
totally out to lunch, consumed with self-doubts and loathing, why
you can get him or her to do or say just about anything. If the
need to belong is strong enough, or the need to feel better than the
guy down the street is strong enough, well, if the ego bolstering
comes with the psychological inducement, the victim will play right
along (now we're getting into operant conditioning.. go read some
Skinner).
Be careful then, that *your* sub-concious doesn't play tricks on
*you*.
--
Laurie Sefton
{harpo,ihnp4,allegra,decvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h!afo
I am the sword, the spear, the arrow. You are the flower, the tree,
the vine! Never will I, or anyone force you to be other than what
you are -Never Again!dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (12/03/84)
> What is this all leading to, you might ask? Basically, if you get > someone in such a psychological state that he/she will believe anything > you will tell them, you can get them to do the most marvelous > things, like speaking in tongues. The human mind can convince > itself of all sorts of things on its own (check out Freud sometime, > he wasn't all bad). Especially a person with a great need to be > accepted, or to believe in *something* to help assague his lagging > faith in him/herself. If you can catch someone whose brain is > totally out to lunch, consumed with self-doubts and loathing, why > you can get him or her to do or say just about anything. If the > need to belong is strong enough, or the need to feel better than the > guy down the street is strong enough, well, if the ego bolstering > comes with the psychological inducement, the victim will play right > along (now we're getting into operant conditioning.. go read some > Skinner). Nice explanation, if you don't mind that it doesn't cover people like me who speak in tongues, but never had any particular desire to. Nor do I have any great need to be "accepted" (except by God, and I already was). Nor am I consumed with self-doubts and loathing. -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois