carnes@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Richard Carnes) (11/11/84)
<> Tom Albrecht writes: > The reason I am against abortion and for capital punishment is that this is > what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that human beings are created in > the image of God and that the taking of innocent human life is wrong, so > abortion is wrong. The Bible says some other things, too. Here is a sampling: [Ex. 21:28] When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned.... [Lev. 20:16] If a woman approaches any animal to have intercourse with it, you shall kill both woman and beast. [Ex. 21:17] Whoever reviles his father or mother shall be put to death. [Ex. 20:5] For I the Lord your God am a jealous God; I punish the children for the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me. Anyone who thinks The Boss was kidding about being jealous should consider the following passage [Deut. 13:6-16]: "If your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife of your bosom or your dearest friend should entice you secretly to go and worship other gods -- gods whom neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the people round about you, near or far, at one end of the land or the other -- then you shall not consent or listen. You shall have no pity on him, you shall not spare him nor shield him, you shall put him to death; your own hand shall be the first to be raised against him and then all the people shall follow. You shall stone him to death, because he tried to lead you astray from the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. All Israel shall hear of it and be afraid; never again will anything as wicked as this be done among you. "When you hear that miscreants have appeared in any of the cities which the Lord your God is giving you to occupy, and have led its inhabitants astray by calling on them to serve other gods whom you have not known, then you shall investigate the matter carefully. If, after diligent examination, the report proves to be true and it is shown that this abominable thing has been done among you, you shall put the inhabitants of that city to the sword. You shall lay the city under solemn ban together with everything in it. You shall gather all its goods into the square and burn both city and goods as a complete offering to the Lord your God; and it shall remain a mound of ruins, never to be rebuilt." Apparently the religion of the Hebrews spread through having the Toughest God in the Neighborhood; the other gods must have quietly left town after hearing a few speeches like this. It is also evident that the Lord takes, shall we say, a broad view of the "sacredness of human life." Richard Carnes ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes Education: That which discloses to the wise and disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding. [A. Bierce]
teitz@aecom.UUCP (11/14/84)
> <> > > Tom Albrecht writes: > > > The reason I am against abortion and for capital punishment is that this is > > what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that human beings are created in > > the image of God and that the taking of innocent human life is wrong, so > > abortion is wrong. > > The Bible says some other things, too. Here is a sampling: > > [Ex. 21:28] When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be > stoned.... > > [Lev. 20:16] If a woman approaches any animal to have intercourse with it, > you shall kill both woman and beast. > > [Ex. 21:17] Whoever reviles his father or mother shall be put to death. > > [Ex. 20:5] For I the Lord your God am a jealous God; I punish the children > for the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who > hate me. > > Anyone who thinks The Boss was kidding about being jealous should > consider the following passage [Deut. 13:6-16]: > > "If your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your son > or daughter, or the wife of your bosom or your dearest friend should > entice you secretly to go and worship other gods -- gods whom neither > you nor your fathers have known, gods of the people round about you, > near or far, at one end of the land or the other -- then you shall not > consent or listen. You shall have no pity on him, you shall not spare > him nor shield him, you shall put him to death; your own hand shall > be the first to be raised against him and then all the people shall > follow. You shall stone him to death, because he tried to lead you > astray from the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the > land of slavery. All Israel shall hear of it and be afraid; never > again will anything as wicked as this be done among you. > > "When you hear that miscreants have appeared in any of the cities which > the Lord your God is giving you to occupy, and have led its inhabitants > astray by calling on them to serve other gods whom you have not known, > then you shall investigate the matter carefully. If, after diligent > examination, the report proves to be true and it is shown that this > abominable thing has been done among you, you shall put the inhabitants > of that city to the sword. You shall lay the city under solemn ban > together with everything in it. You shall gather all its goods into > the square and burn both city and goods as a complete offering to > the Lord your God; and it shall remain a mound of ruins, never to be > rebuilt." > > Apparently the religion of the Hebrews spread through having the Toughest > God in the Neighborhood; the other gods must have quietly left town after > hearing a few speeches like this. It is also evident that the Lord takes, > shall we say, a broad view of the "sacredness of human life." > > Richard Carnes > ihnp4!gargoyle!carnes > > Education: That which discloses to the wise and disguises from the foolish > their lack of understanding. [A. Bierce] This is not meant to be a complee response to this article but raher just a start. I live in America. The country has laws by which I must abide. I have very little power in changing these laws, in fact almost none at all except for the right to cast a vote in an election to elect a person sympathetic to my views. If I were to disobey a law of this country I would expect to be punished according to the laws of this country. I could not really argue and complain that the law does not recognize the human soul or spirit. In fact such arguing would only be wasting time. Why then, do you say that the Being who set up human life in the first place and put us all here ( as I believe G-D did and does every day ),why can He not make rules about how to live in his province, which we call the universe. And if we transgress why should G-D not be able to punish us as He sees fit. I's no as if He's meteing out a punishment without our knowing of it. All the rules are spelled out in the Bible ( sometimes not too clearly, but the're there nonetheless ).If G-D gave us a spirit and soul, He can take it if we break the rules of the game ( and even if we don't ). Eliyahu Teitz.
aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) (11/20/84)
Richard Carnes (gargoyle!carnes) writes: > Apparently the religion of the Hebrews spread through having the Toughest > God in the Neighborhood.... preceded by a variety of Old Testament quotes prescribing punishment by death for various things, including long passages on destroying people or cities which sought to turn people away from the "Toughest God" (that is what He is, actually, but that's not my point). It would be interesting to hear comments from the Jewish net community (e.g. Yiri) on those passages; but my understanding would be that the Lord a) wanted no one to be hurt by turning away from Him, b) wanted to impress upon not only the Hebrews but also all future generations the vital importance of holiness -- that if you turn away from God and act in any destructive manner (e.g. something so seemingly trivial as reviling your father or mother), something inside you dies. In a way, it could be said that the Hebrews and the Hebrew Law, with so many prescriptions of physical death, were a prophetic type of the Christian idea (or does it also show up in Judaism? I don't know) of spiritual death. -- -- Jeff Sargent {decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "I'm not asking for anyone's bleeding charity." "Then do. At once. Ask for the Bleeding Charity."
act@pur-phy.UUCP (Alex C. Tselis) (12/03/84)
> > The Bible says some other things, too. Here is a sampling: > > > > [Ex. 21:17] Whoever reviles his father or mother shall be put to death. > > > > [Ex. 20:5] For I the Lord your God am a jealous God; I punish the children > > for the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who > > hate me. > > > > Anyone who thinks The Boss was kidding about being jealous should > > consider the following passage [Deut. 13:6-16]: > > > > "If your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your son > > or daughter, or the wife of your bosom or your dearest friend should > > entice you secretly to go and worship other gods -- gods whom neither > > you nor your fathers have known, gods of the people round about you, > > near or far, at one end of the land or the other -- then you shall not > > consent or listen. You shall have no pity on him, you shall not spare > > him nor shield him, you shall put him to death; your own hand shall > > be the first to be raised against him and then all the people shall > > follow. You shall stone him to death, because he tried to lead you > > astray from the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the > > land of slavery. All Israel shall hear of it and be afraid; never > > again will anything as wicked as this be done among you. > > > > "When you hear that miscreants have appeared in any of the cities which > > the Lord your God is giving you to occupy, and have led its inhabitants > > astray by calling on them to serve other gods whom you have not known, > > then you shall investigate the matter carefully. If, after diligent > > examination, the report proves to be true and it is shown that this > > abominable thing has been done among you, you shall put the inhabitants > > of that city to the sword. You shall lay the city under solemn ban > > together with everything in it. You shall gather all its goods into > > the square and burn both city and goods as a complete offering to > > the Lord your God; and it shall remain a mound of ruins, never to be > > rebuilt." > > This is not meant to be a complee response to this article but raher just a start. > I live in America. The country has laws by which I must abide. I have > very little power in changing these laws, in fact almost none at all except > for the right to cast a vote in an election to elect a person sympathetic > to my views. > If I were to disobey a law of this country I would expect to be > punished according to the laws of this country. I could not really argue > and complain that the law does not recognize the human soul or spirit. In > fact such arguing would only be wasting time. > Why then, do you say that the Being who set up human life in the first > place and put us all here ( as I believe G-D did and does every day ),why > can He not make rules about how to live in his province, which we call the > universe. And if we transgress why should G-D not be able to punish us as > He sees fit. I's no as if He's meteing out a punishment without our knowing > of it. All the rules are spelled out in the Bible ( sometimes not too > clearly, but the're there nonetheless ).If G-D gave us a spirit and soul, > He can take it if we break the rules of the game ( and even if we don't ). > I'd like to ask the following thing: Suppose that someone with a different religion came up to you, and tried to convert you to their religion. The above quotes from the Bible seem to say that you should immediately beat them up, if not kill them. Is this what you would do? If not, then you would seem to be disobeying God's rules. I'm assuming that the above quotes from the Bible are accurate. I'm assuming that you wouldn't murder a proselytizer from a different religion. How do you square this with what you say about obeying God's Law? It seems to me that the Bible is an incredibly complicated work, involving history, metaphor, hortatory philosophy, ethics, and a lot of other stuff like that. People have used the Bible for very unChristian ends, justifying the most pernicious doctrines by saying that it's in the Bible. What they're really doing is starting out with their own prejudices, finding something in the Book which seems to fit what they need, and then using it to justify themselves. The Bible has been used to justify all sorts of bloodbaths and misery that simply saying that one does something or believes something because it's in the Bible is no longer good enough. I think that when people do this, they are showing great disrespect to both the Bible and to God, that they are verging on some sort of blasphemy. The best parts of the Bible, and those closest to the REAL spirit of both Christianity and Judaism, are the parts which exhort love and tolerance for others. This does NOT include calling people names when they disagree with you, it does NOT include murdering innocent civilians in Central America (or even the guilty ones), it does NOT include throwing the first stone. It certainly does NOT include pillorying those who disagree with you. The story of the Samaritan is very instructive in this respect, I think. Furthermore, part of the soul God gave you is your ability to think. And that means that you are to use your ability to think to understand the spirit of the Bible, not just its words. The words themselves are arbitrary constructions but the concepts contained therein are not, and are the very meat of both Judaism and Christianity. Man was not made for the Law, but the Law was made for Man.
agz@pucc-k (Andrew Banta) (12/04/84)
> I'd like to ask the following thing: Suppose that someone with a different > religion came up to you, and tried to convert you to their religion. The > above quotes from the Bible seem to say that you should immediately beat them > up, if not kill them. Is this what you would do? If not, then you would seem > to be disobeying God's rules. Ok, this God has made up "The Rules". We take this for granted. Now, why should it ask us to carry out judgement and sentencing on these rules? If it wants to make the rules, it whould be the one responsible for carrying them out. I mean it would seem far more reasonable to have a God, who is all knowing and all powerful carry these out. Humans are a little to adept at making mistakes ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andy Banta {decvax!allegra!ihnp4}!pur-ee!pucc-k!agz Dept. of Mental Instability, Purdue University --- "I'm OK, You're a CS Major" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------