rosenblg@acf4.UUCP (11/16/84)
(at nyu)
[i think this was lost, so i am reposting it again.]
i don't know if this has been covered in this group, as i am
a new reader. this may sound strange, but it is nonetheless true.
i am seriously thinking of converting from Judaism to
Christianity, for many reasons. as this is not the most frequent
of sitations, and not the most talked about, i was wondering what
other people's experiences were. if it is too personal for the
group, i would appreciate it if anyone who has gone through this
would send me mail.
[i won't say who this is for, or whether it is for me or not,
to protect the person from loose opinions and rumors at this site
(too many people here know the person). but be assured that the actual
responses (mail and other), if any, will be from the person involved.]
{ihnp4!, allegra!} cmcl2!acf4!rosenblg
/* ---------- */yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/18/84)
Why would anyone want to convert to a counterfeit? Can't they read? Why don't they look into the matter in some depth. They are obviously not very knowledgeable in Judaism nor Christianity. If they feign otherwise let them speak up. Why must they sneak around? Are they ashamed? Deservedly so.
ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow) (11/20/84)
-- >> i am seriously thinking of converting from Judaism to >> Christianity, for many reasons... So did the composer Felix Mendelsohn, but who remembers him as Felix Bartholdy? The Nazis still banned his music. You may adopt all the beliefs and rituals of the Goyim, but Jewish you can't convert from-- it's something you are. Have fun, and remember: they'll come for you anyway. -- *** *** JE MAINTIENDRAI ***** ***** ****** ****** 19 Nov 84 [29 Brumaire An CXCIII] ken perlow ***** ***** (312)979-7188 ** ** ** ** ..ihnp4!iwsl8!ken *** ***
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (11/20/84)
In article <1741@ucf-cs.UUCP> yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) writes: >Why would anyone want to convert to a counterfeit? Can't they read? >Why don't they look into the matter in some depth. They are obviously >not very knowledgeable in Judaism nor Christianity. If they feign >otherwise let them speak up. Why must they sneak around? Are they >ashamed? Deservedly so. You do *not* know the person involved, so how can you say they are ignorant? Ashamed? Maybe not - maybe simply afraid of this very sort of thing - derision and insults. Let us continue our discussion of the basis of Christianity - but let us leave alone those who are involved in deep (and probably painful) soul-searching.
rosenblg@acf4.UUCP (11/21/84)
/***** acf4:net.religion / yiri@ucf-cs / 9:15 am Nov 18, 1984*/
Why would anyone want to convert to a counterfeit? Can't they read?
Why don't they look into the matter in some depth. They are obviously
not very knowledgeable in Judaism nor Christianity. If they feign
otherwise let them speak up. Why must they sneak around? Are they
ashamed? Deservedly so.
/* ---------- */
a "counterfeit"?? you have posed no arguments to explain why you feel
Christianity is a counterfeit religion. decisions like this are not
something done on a whim, so obviously the matter has, or is, being
looked into very deeply. what could be deeper??
there's no sneaking involved; if there was, they wouldn't have
placed this on the net.
{ihnp4!allegra!} cmcl2!acf4!rosenblgyiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) (11/22/84)
In article <1741@ucf-cs.UUCP> yiri@ucf-cs.UUCP (Yirmiyahu BenDavid) writes: >Why would anyone want to convert to a counterfeit? Can't they read? >Why don't they look into the matter in some depth. They are obviously >not very knowledgeable in Judaism nor Christianity. If they feign >otherwise let them speak up. Why must they sneak around? Are they >ashamed? Deservedly so. You do *not* know the person involved, so how can you say they are ignorant? Ashamed? Maybe not - maybe simply afraid of this very sort of thing - derision and insults. Let us continue our discussion of the basis of Christianity - but let us leave alone those who are involved in deep (and probably painful) soul-searching. *********************** Yiri responds: Knowing the person involved has nothing to do with the ignorance of not properly researching the origins of Christianity. Parkes established that by the 4th century christianity bore little or no resemblance to the 1st century Jewish sect (the N'tzarim). Bagatti established that the early Christians (as opposed to N'tzarim) were killing N'tzarim who would not abandon Torah. Parkes established that antinomianism was inherent in early Christianity and has been a recurrent theme ever since. The Interpreter's Dictionary even concedes that the 'New Testament' was redacted by the Christians to conform to their notions of what was 'true'. There is no legitimate link between Christianity and Y'shua the Jew. Nor is there any legitimate link between Christianity or 'Jesus' (the Christian counterfeit image of the historical Y'shua) and Y'shua the N'tzarim or his 1st century N'tzarim followers/apprentices. It then follows that there is no authenticate claim by a counterfeit religion with a counterfeit of a historical Jewish figure to be a Jewish messiah. My impression is that Christians are isolating him/her from true and proper information of which s/he should be aware. That is deception. It is also SCOS (standard Christian operating procedure) as exemplified throughout history. It is also what Christians currently define as cultish. The Baptist minister who converted to Judaism was quite public about it prior to his conversion. (Jewish law forbids references to a former gentile state of a Jew. Hence, you don't find Jews talking about having been converted or identifying converts to Judaism except in isolated cases of poor taste and ignorance of Jewish law or cases of aliyah to Israel, marriage and the like where it is necessary. Jewish law was more concerned that converts not be slighted as if they were somehow less Jewish than born Jews.) My disdain is not for the poor person who is being duped, rather it is for the super-dupers and their tactics of buffering that individual from having to deal with true and proper historical information. If the decision were really forthright and well-considered there would be no motivation to hide. A person who is armed with truth does not fear derision... witness the Baptist minister who converted to Judaism and was quite public about it. He challenged anyone and everyone to dispute these things I have presented on the net... and, like on the net and in other scholarly circles, there IS no logical and reasonable disputation. If your potential convert really looks into these things s/he will not convert. Judging from the tendency to hide the decision, I also question whether the convert has any real understanding of Judaism or Christianity ... and is even emotionally able to stand up and speak for himself. If so, let him/her do it. Such a decision certainly merits withstanding such scrutiny. Your idea of letting them alone is to feed them christian propaganda and then for Jews to let them alone. Have the individual contact me by mail if they really want some references to objective information which even scholarly Christian authors concede. Let him have information on both sides of the picture - even though that is not SCOS. ***************************
mack@mit-athena.ARPA (Harry Maccoby) (11/23/84)
I would be willing to speak to rosenblg about my conversion to Christianity. I am losing my account here at the end of the week. I can be called at 617/782-3947. Harry
jah@philabs.UUCP (Julie Harazduk) (12/07/84)
<just in case> > -- > >> i am seriously thinking of converting from Judaism to > >> Christianity, for many reasons... > ken perlow ***** ***** > So did the composer Felix Mendelsohn, but who remembers him as Felix > Bartholdy? The Nazis still banned his music. You may adopt all the > beliefs and rituals of the Goyim, but Jewish you can't convert from-- > it's something you are. Have fun, and remember: they'll come for you > anyway. > -- Well, better late than never. In one sense, ken, you're right. Converting from Judaism to Christianity can't truly happen. What can happen is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the Messiah promised by God in the covenant described in the Torah (and other Scripture as well). Barring any argument from Yiri, Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism brought to the Jew first and to the Gentile (see Romans 1:16). As Jeff Sargent said so eloquently, Christ is the High Priest (see Hebrews 2:17) and the Sacrifice (Hebrews 9:13-14). He requires ``our'' lives as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1). We must be dead to ourselves and alive to Him (Romans 6:4-11). If you're considering Christ, you're on the right track. Just as Him to make Himself real to you. I hope that nothing that has been said will discourage you for seeking the truth. Julie A. Harazduk philabs!jah