mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (12/08/84)
I have a question for the non-theists out there: where does the authority for your moral system come from? I'm particularly interested in whether you feel your system allows any judgement of the behavior of others. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (12/09/84)
In article <1700@umcp-cs.UUCP> mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: > I have a question for the non-theists out there: where does the > authority for your moral system come from? > > I'm particularly interested in whether you feel your system allows any > judgement of the behavior of others. > > Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe Glad you asked-- I didn't have much idea until I thought about it. Authority for a moral system comes from the same place authority for any other secular position, or status comes from: power. Not just the power to inflict, but the passive power of agreement. Think of it as being the same sort of question as "where does the authority of the president come from?" I feel that judgement is unreliable, but an inescapable heuristic. Without judgement, a system of any sort is outcompeted or must survive commensally with a system that does have judgement. -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh
bch@mcnc.UUCP (Byron Howes) (12/10/84)
In article <umcp-cs.1700> mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >I have a question for the non-theists out there: where does the >authority for your moral system come from? > >I'm particularly interested in whether you feel your system allows any >judgement of the behavior of others. Even as a theist (I guess) I'd have to say that my moral system comes from my culture. The authority (in this culture) is largely English Common Law, extracted to some extent from a series of tracts commonly known as The Bible. Other cultures (a good example right now is Iran) draw on different cultural authorities, and thus have different moral systems. Moral systems provide a set of normative standards which circumscribe acceptable modes of behavior. Individuals within a society may also define their own moral codes, usually based on some subset of the recognized set of moral codes, and hold other members up to those standards. It really is a matter of taste. -- Byron C. Howes ...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bch
davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) (12/10/84)
In article <1700@umcp-cs.UUCP> mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >I have a question for the non-theists out there: where does the >authority for your moral system come from? > >I'm particularly interested in whether you feel your system allows any >judgement of the behavior of others. I wonder why the assumption that a moral system needs an "authority"? When I was a child I needed an authority (my parents) since I did not have an adaquate world view to deal with the everyday reality about me. However, as an adult I now have concepts which seem to explain the why and wherefor of most things around me and allows me to deal with them on a rational basis. I simply don't seem to need an authority. I believe it is wrong to "judge" (doesn't the Bible have something to say about that?) Instead, I use the term "descernment". That is, using my abilities to understand that which is going on without comment, rather than turning it into a "Good" vs "Bad" contest. {ctvax,gatech,seismo,ihnp4}|ut-sally|oakhill|davet
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (12/10/84)
I was afraid that my question was going to be misunderstood. Let me
rephrase it and try to bring up some side issues I'd like to hear about.
(1) What is it that makes you follow whatever moral system you follow?
(In other words, why not some other system? or why follow any?)
(2) Do you grant it and external authority? For instance, does it permit
judging someone like Adolf Hitler as morally corrupt?
(3) (Parents only) By authority do you teach a moral system to your
children?
No flames please. By the way, the "moral authority assumption" arises
from the realization that if moral systems are entirely produced internally,
than why should there be a sense of guilt in not following it?
Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.padraig@utastro.UUCP (Padraig Houlahan) (12/10/84)
>I have a question for the non-theists out there: where does the >authority for your moral system come from? > >I'm particularly interested in whether you feel your system allows any >judgement of the behavior of others. > >Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe As a non-theist I will throw in my two cents worth. Personally I do not need to be told not to harm or cause pain to others. The basis for this attitude is remarkably simple; it makes society more stable, and pleasent for most people to live in. The fact that most acts that are called immoral also violate the above criterion suggests that this is the real basis for morality, and not some divine being's arbitrary whim. This approach towards morality of course does not recognize any absolute standards of right or wrong, but it attains the goals to which those based on theistic beliefs aspire. I have yet to come across a situation where this criterion fails. I feel quite comfortable criticizing behaviour that makes life unpleasent for the majority.
dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois) (12/11/84)
> In article <1700@umcp-cs.UUCP> mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >>I have a question for the non-theists out there: where does the >>authority for your moral system come from? >> >>I'm particularly interested in whether you feel your system allows any >>judgement of the behavior of others. > I wonder why the assumption that a moral system needs an "authority"? > When I was a child I needed an authority (my parents) since I did not > have an adaquate world view to deal with the everyday reality about me. > > However, as an adult I now have concepts which seem to explain the why > and wherefor of most things around me and allows me to deal with them on > a rational basis. I simply don't seem to need an authority. > > I believe it is wrong to "judge" (doesn't the Bible have something to > say about that?) Instead, I use the term "descernment". That is, using > my abilities to understand that which is going on without comment, rather > than turning it into a "Good" vs "Bad" contest. > [Dave Trissel] First, I do not think that is true to say that there is no authority in this system of morals, because it assumes the authority of rationality (which I'm not (surprise!) questioning here, just pointing out). Second, without getting into the topic of judgment, it can be observed that there is, at least, a problem of definition, since a statement was made about something being wrong (i.e., judging) followed by a statement that there is no need to turn things into a good or bad contest. What is the relation, if any, between something being "wrong" and something being "bad"? It seems to me that there is an attempt to introduce a semantic trick here. I suppose it might be added that the question "why does a moral system need an authority" was at least partially answered by the one asking it: so that children will accept their parents guidance. It was stated that as a child, the world view was inadequate. But many children, and probably all children at least some of the time, feel their world view is adequate to the point that they ought not have to do as their parents say. Even (to stem an anticipated objection) in the presence of rational discussion of why they ought to do it. -- Paul DuBois {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois "I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being." Psalm 104:33
ark@alice.UUCP (Andrew Koenig) (12/12/84)
I am not a parent, so I will only try to answer your first two questions. 1. What is it that makes me follow the moral system I do? The conviction that it is in my best interest as a rational being to do so. 2. Does my system permit judging someone like Adolf Hitler as morally corrupt? Yes. It is immoral to claim for one's self rights that one does not also accord to others.
davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) (12/13/84)
In article <1766@umcp-cs.UUCP> mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) writes: >(1) What is it that makes you follow whatever moral system you follow? > (In other words, why not some other system? or why follow any?) Because it seems the most rational way to proceed given my world view. I also recognize an inner prompting of some sort to follow it. That may be only because it "clicks" with my world view, or it may be due to some less known type of mechanism. (I favor the "inner knowing" hypothesis.) >(2) Do you grant it and external authority? For instance, does it permit > judging someone like Adolf Hitler as morally corrupt? In my view, Hitler was "attracted" to the world by the events of the times. In blaming him, you fail to take account of the mechanisms which caused him to be there. In effect, only pointing at symtoms. Yes, he was morally corrupt, but I find him blameless. (This should prove to be a controversial statement to make!!) > "(paraphrased) If moral systems are produced internally then why should > there be a sense of guilt in not following it? That depends on what "guilt" really is. Guilt could be derived from not following a path consistent with your belief system. We are so complex that it may easily be possible for someone to feel guilty without having the conscious knowledge of why (since the mechanisms violated would be "known" only at a deeper level in the psyche.) This could be especially true if during early childhood forgotten "wrong"s and "rights" were implanted. >Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est. (* would you kindly translate this?*) Thanks for your kind attention. Dave Trissel {ctvax,seismo,gatech,ihnp4}!ut-sally!oakhill!davet
lip@masscomp.UUCP (John Lipinski) (12/13/84)
>I have a question for the non-theists out there: where does the >authority for your moral system come from? > >I'm particularly interested in whether you feel your system allows any >judgement of the behavior of others. > >Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe To Wingate: Non-theists derive their authority from their own personal power/influence/will. Power creates its own values. No justification is necessary, either by a possible god or any other influence. On the other hand, theists generally rely on the power of the collective acceptance of their respective society or culture for their authority. A not-theistic system "allowing judgement of the behavior of others" is certainly possible. How can any one *not* judge or evaluate his or her experiences? - John Lipinski
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (12/15/84)
In article <175@masscomp.UUCP> lip@masscomp.UUCP (John Lipinski) writes: >On the other hand, theists generally rely on the power of the >collective acceptance of their respective society or culture for their >authority. The history of Christianity has shown that while this may be common, it is by no means universal. A lot of people who are of great historical importance dissented with the accepted moral code, and the experiences of Roman Catholics who view the church's position on birth control as wrong implies that the source of authority lies elsewhere. I would suggest that it lies in the conscience, as instructed by scripture, the church, or whatever. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe