esk@wucs.UUCP (Paul V. Torek) (12/09/84)
[I'm not sure which newsgroup this came from, but it's relevant to both] > So to say that "Thus and such is (morally) wrong" is to say "Thus and > such is detremental or harmful to (will cause to change) my culture." > Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,amd,sun}!amdahl!gam Obviously false, given that people often call things done by their culture morally wrong, even when the practice is entirely consistent with the other aspects of the culture. There is nothing odd about such criticism of one's own culture, yet by gam's definition it would be very odd indeed (self-contradictory even). So much for that definition. Next! --The aspiring iconoclast, Paul V. Torek, ihnp4!wucs!wucec1!pvt1047 Please send any mail directly to this address, not the sender's. Thanks.
lip@masscomp.UUCP (John Lipinski) (12/11/84)
In article <544@wucs.UUCP> esk@wucs.UUCP (Paul V. Torek) writes: > >> So to say that "Thus and such is (morally) wrong" is to say "Thus and >> such is detremental or harmful to (will cause to change) my culture." >> Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,amd,sun}!amdahl!gam > >Obviously false, given that people often call things done by their >culture morally wrong, even when the practice is entirely consistent >with the other aspects of the culture. There is nothing odd about >such criticism of one's own culture, yet by gam's definition it >would be very odd indeed (self-contradictory even). > >So much for that definition. Next! > --The aspiring iconoclast, > Paul V. Torek, ihnp4!wucs!wucec1!pvt1047 No, you don't get off that easy. You'll have to give us some examples of "morally wrong" things that that are "entirely consistent with the other aspects of the culture" before you can say "obviously false." - John Lipinski
flink@umcp-cs.UUCP (Paul Torek) (12/29/84)
From: lip@masscomp.UUCP (John Lipinski) >>[me]Obviously false, given that people often call things done by their >>culture morally wrong, even when the practice is entirely consistent >>with the other aspects of the culture. There is nothing odd about >>such criticism of one's own culture, yet by gam's definition it >>would be very odd indeed (self-contradictory even). > > No, you don't get off that easy. You'll have to give us some examples of > "morally wrong" things that that are "entirely consistent with the other > aspects of the culture" before you can say "obviously false." I said that often *people call* things morally wrong that are entirely consistent with the other aspects of their culture. Examples? Slavery, U.S., 1850 -- the abolitionist movement. Libertarianism, Marxism, or just about any ideological movement in its infancy. All these groups were critics of their cultures. QED. --The accomplished iconoclast, Paul V Torek, umcp-cs!flink
gam@amdahl.UUCP (Gordon A. Moffett) (12/29/84)
> = Paul V Torek, umcp-cs!flink > I said that often *people call* things morally wrong that are entirely > consistent with the other aspects of their culture. Examples? Slavery, > U.S., 1850 -- the abolitionist movement. Libertarianism, Marxism, or > just about any ideological movement in its infancy. All these groups > were critics of their cultures. QED. > > --The accomplished iconoclast, Your examples are consistent with the Behaviorist model. In each instance, the things called "morally wrong" are seen as threats to the longevity of the culture (though they are a part of it). Marxism, too, was saying that Capitalism was a *completed step* in social development but its usefulness had ended, and was now a threat to successful continuation of the culture. These "cultual dissonances" are reactions not to destroy the culture but to preserve it, possibly in an altered form. (Also we might make subjective observations that the abolitionists were right -- they succeded -- and the Socialists were wrong -- they did not succede (in capitalist economies)). We seek to eliminate actions we feel are "morally wrong" because the consequences of not doing so are social (cultural) disintegration. Quid Malberg in Plano. -- Gordon A. Moffett ...!{ihnp4,hplabs,sun}!amdahl!gam 37 22'50" N / 121 59'12" W [ This is just me talking. ]