myers@uwmacc.UUCP (Jeff Myers) (01/13/85)
> > > > Falwell/Moral Majority 8 > > Fundamentalist Christians 4 > > Jews for Jesus 2 > > Moonies 2 > > Campus Crusade for Christ 1 > > Mormons 1 > > ------------------------- - > > Total Miscelaneous Xians 18 > > > > Um, I beg to differ, but neither the Moonies and Mormons are "Christians". > Now, I'm not saying that the others are particularly _good_ examples of > Christians, but the others just down fit it that category. > > Try: "Miscelaneous Loony-toons", perhaps. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Ray Lubinsky University of Virginia, Dept. of Computer Science > uucp: decvax!mcnc!ncsu!uvacs!rwl > > "Always looking for a better way, I am!" I suggest you find out more about the Mormon church, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Moonies I'm not qualified to comment on. -- Jeff Myers The views above may or may not University of Wisconsin-Madison reflect the views of any other Madison Academic Computing Center person or group at UW-Madison. ARPA: uwmacc!myers@wisc-rsch.arpa uucp: ..!{ucbvax,allegra,heurikon,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!myers
schmidt@reed.UUCP (Alan Schmidt) (01/22/85)
>> Um, I beg to differ, but neither the Moonies and Mormons are "Christians". >> Now, I'm not saying that the others are particularly _good_ examples of >> Christians, but the others just down fit it that category. >> >> Try: "Miscelaneous Loony-toons", perhaps. >> >> Ray Lubinsky >> > > I suggest you find out more about the Mormon church, "The Church of Jesus > Christ of Latter Day Saints". Moonies I'm not qualified to comment on. > > Jeff Myers Many Christian groups do not consider The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be Christian. Therefore, it is not rhetorically incorrect to say Mormons are not Christian. I'm familiar with the convention, but I'm not too keen on the exact reasons behind it, though I suppose I could find out if someone really really needed to know (currently, supper starts in a half hour, so I'm not taking the research time). -- Alan (..tektronix!reed!schmidt)
larsen@druxo.UUCP (LarsenME) (01/24/85)
> Many Christian groups do not consider The Church of Jesus Christ >of Latter Day Saints to be Christian. Therefore, it is not rhetorically >incorrect to say Mormons are not Christian. > > ... > -- Alan > (..tektronix!reed!schmidt) Webster: "rhetoric - 1. the art of speaking or writing effectively." Unfortunately, "effective" writing does not imply accuracy, so I cannot dispute the second statement above. However, I would suggest that "many Christian groups" are as much in the dark about Mormons as the poster of the original article. After all, you don't go to IBM or Xerox to get answers to your questions about a VAX, but the right folks at Digital can tell you all you want to know. You may not like the answers, but you get it from the source, not from rumor or hearsay. Mark E. Larsen ...ihnp4!druxo!larsen P.S. These are my own views, not those of my employer.
doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (01/25/85)
> Many Christian groups do not consider The Church of Jesus Christ > of Latter Day Saints to be Christian. Therefore, it is not rhetorically > incorrect to say Mormons are not Christian. THAT is how one defines Christianity???????????? -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug
scott@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Scott Deerwester) (01/26/85)
I would highly recommend the book, "The Mormon Papers", available at any Christian bookstore for a rigorous treatment of why Mormons aren't Christians by any definition not given by Mormons. It discusses their "scriptures", doctrines, history... I'd be glad to provide a better reference for anybody who wants the book but can't find it. Also "The Kingdom of the Cults" has a good (briefer) summary of the same issues. The latter also discusses Jehovah's Witnesses, the Unification Church, and a lot of other cults that are a lot further away from Christianity. Scott Deerwester (now at) University of Chicago Graduate Library School
davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) (01/27/85)
In article <315@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> scott@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Scott Deerwester) writes: >I would highly recommend the book, "The Mormon Papers", available >at any Christian bookstore for a rigorous treatment of why Mormons >aren't Christians by any definition not given by Mormons. Some decades ago while in highschool I was given a book by my parents titled something like "What Others Believe" I think by Zondorvon Press. Not only did it warn me about the Mormon church but had a chapter on that evil institution the Catholic Church. It showed how Catholics are so misguided in that as every year goes by they tend to worship Mary more and more and Jesus less and less. Another shocking "truth" was that they don't even read the REAL Bible (The King James Version) but instead thier church has seen fit to invent its own version of God's word. Being the self-righteous dedicated Church of the Nazaerene member that I was I later told off a good friend of mine in college about how horrible his religion was. I was too blind to see that he went away really hurt from my attack. Now, older but much wiser I still feel regret for the harm I caused. It took a while, but after facing up to the hypocrisy of my religion and seeing how horrible and narrow-minded my views were I finally saw the light and quit. So when I see a reference to a book which will 'explain the truth' about one religion written by the follower of another I have to wonder. How many others are building up regrets like mine? Worse yet, how many others will never come to know and understand their self-righteous and hypocritical ways? That is the saddest part. Dave Trissel {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax,gatech}!ut-sally!oakhill!davet
geb@cadre.UUCP (01/29/85)
In article <315@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> scott@gargoyle.UUCP writes: >I would highly recommend the book, "The Mormon Papers", available >at any Christian bookstore for a rigorous treatment of why Mormons >aren't Christians by any definition not given by Mormons. It >discusses their "scriptures", doctrines, history... I'd be glad >to provide a better reference for anybody who wants the book >but can't find it. Also "The Kingdom of the Cults" has a good >(briefer) summary of the same issues. The latter also discusses >Jehovah's Witnesses, the Unification Church, and a lot of other >cults that are a lot further away from Christianity. > > Scott Deerwester > (now at) University of Chicago > Graduate Library School The literature you find in "Christian" bookstores is about as "rigorous" and objective as the news over radio Moscow. I suggest you trip on over to Regenstein Library (I suppose you know how to find that) and browse through some of the excellent collection on the Mormons. As a matter of fact, the University of Chicago press publishes an excellent non-biased book called "The Mormons" by Thomas F. O'Dea, who is a catholic priest. He certainly does not suggest that the Mormons are non-Christians. I also suggest you check a few encyclopedias, like Britannica. I know of not one authority on the sociology of religions that would classify either the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses as non-Christian. In actuality, the only people who don't consider Mormons to be Christian are the usual set of "born-again" loonies.
bch@ecsvax.UUCP (Byron C. Howes) (01/30/85)
In article <837@reed.UUCP> schmidt@reed.UUCP writes: > Many Christian groups do not consider The Church of Jesus Christ >of Latter Day Saints to be Christian. Therefore, it is not rhetorically >incorrect to say Mormons are not Christian. Many Christian groups do consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be Christian. Therefore, it is not rhetorically incorrect to say Mormons *are* Christian. By any objective standard, the Mormons would appear to be disciples of Christ following an intellectual tradition different from that of Apostolic christianity. That they differ from "mainstream" christi- anity in this day and age and that they aren't fundamentalist christians does not preclude them from being generically christian. Remember, at one time "mainstream" christianity did not consider protestant christians to be christians. -- Byron Howes System Manager -- NCECS ...!{decvax,akgua}!mcnc!ecsvax!bch
sm@cadre.UUCP (01/30/85)
In article <837@reed.UUCP> schmidt@reed.UUCP (PUT YOUR RELIGION HERE) writes: > Many Christian groups do not consider The Church of Jesus Christ >of Latter Day Saints to be Christian. Therefore, it is not rhetorically >incorrect to say Mormons are not Christian. Whoa! I would argue that the opinion of "Many Christian groups" is of no value, whatsoever, in determining who is a Christian [a person pro- fessing belief in Jesus as the Christ *OR* in the religion based on the teachings of Jesus - Webster]. Hitler's Germany and the Crusaders are examples of "Christians" that I am sure Jesus would have disavowed; so much for the opinion of self-proclaimed Christians. Haven't we seen enough of this discussion? Sean McLinden
sm@cadre.UUCP (01/30/85)
In article <588@ecsvax.UUCP> bch@ecsvax.UUCP (Byron C. Howes) writes: > ... That they differ from "mainstream" christi- >anity in this day and age and that they aren't fundamentalist >christians does not preclude them from being generically christian. >Remember, at one time "mainstream" christianity did not consider >protestant christians to be christians. Last I heard, "Christ" was a title and "Jesus Christ" a person. Convention suggests that "Christian" should be capitalized for those reasons (independent of religious belief). Our language is degenerating enough as it is and besides, capital letters add flair to a sentence. Sean McLinden (A former Teletype user)
geb@cadre.UUCP (01/30/85)
>So when I see a reference to a book which will 'explain the truth' about >one religion written by the follower of another I have to wonder. How many >others are building up regrets like mine? Worse yet, how many others will >never come to know and understand their self-righteous and hypocritical ways? >That is the saddest part. Your letter is a good example of the harm such hate-literature can cause. Fortunately it has become unfashionable to publish books against Jews or saying that blacks aren't really human except among the most lunatic fringe, but many people (I didn't say all or even the majority, so don't write) in the Evangelical movement seem to think evangelism consists of holding other people's forms of worship up to ridicule. I think this is a most despicable practice. Of course rational doctrinal dispute is perfectly legitimate, as is social criticism of policies of institutions such as the Mormon or Catholic Church, but that is not what you find in the "Christian" presses (such as Zondervan). Evangelicals should concentrate on pursuading people of the merits of what they have to offer rather than carping at the "cults".
schmidt@reed.UUCP (Alan Schmidt) (01/31/85)
|| The literature you find in "Christian" bookstores is about as "rigorous" || and objective as the news over radio Moscow. ... || As a matter of fact, the University of Chicago press publishes an || excellent non-biased book called "The Mormons" by Thomas F. O'Dea, || who is a catholic priest. He certainly does not suggest that the || Mormons are non-Christians. ... || In actuality, the only people who don't consider Mormons || to be Christian are the usual set of "born-again" loonies. The Mormons do not believe in the divinity of Christ. They may call themselves Christians, and that's just fine. The encyclopedia can call them Christians. This is also fine. Religions have usually been worlds unto themselves as far as definitions are concerned, and I feel I should give you mine: Christians believe Christ was God. Yes, this is the Humpty-Dumpty syndrome. It is also the formal policy of the Catholic church (the greater portion of which do not fall into the category of "'born-again' loonies"), the Lutherans, Methodists, and Presbyterians. I'll concede that there are a lot of "loonies" out there, some of which don't consider anyone who doesn't belong to their denomination non-Christian. It all depends on where you place your definitive authority on religious matters. If my "last word" comes from one source, and yours comes from another, we can talk until we're blue in the face, and not get anywhere. This is one reason I don't subscribe to net.religion. Take it for what it's worth. At the very least, we can agree to disagree. Alan ..tektronix!reed!schmidt PS Everyone's entitled to their own, albeit WRONG opinion.
larryg@teklds.UUCP (Larry Gardner) (01/31/85)
I can certainly understand a disdain for self-righteousness but that doesn't mean that someone can't be "right". If there really is a truth, then there must be error to anything not lining up with that truth. God says to "speak the truth in love". It sounds like in your Nazarene churh they were more interested in religiousness than knowing Jesus. That happens to people inside and outside or churches. It is wrong to put down another person for whatever "right" reason a person has. It isn't wrong to speak the truth in a loving way. It is too bad that you weren't taught that as well as the false doctrines of Mormonism and the Catholic church. Yes, I will take a stand and say the ONLY WAY is knowing Jesus. There is no other! But I will not force you to believe it or insult you if you don't. Jesus didn't teach that. The only people He tended to insult were the "SELF"-righteous. karen
doug@terak.UUCP (Doug Pardee) (01/31/85)
Boy, some people leave themselves WIDE OPEN! Check this out... > I would highly recommend the book, "The Mormon Papers", available > at any Christian bookstore for a rigorous treatment of why Mormons > aren't Christians by any definition not given by Mormons. 1) I am not Mormon (nor any kind of Christian, for that matter). 2) My definition of "Christian" is "Someone whose religion believes that Jesus Christ was in some manner divine". 3) Mormons are Christians by my definition of Christianity. You claimed that there was NOT ONE non-Mormon in the world whose definition of Christianity would include Mormonism. Since I am such a person, YOU LOSE. You are WRONG. There is NO defense. -- Doug Pardee -- Terak Corp. -- !{hao,ihnp4,decvax}!noao!terak!doug
bmt@we53.UUCP ( B. M. Thomas ) (02/01/85)
>..................... After all, you don't go to IBM or Xerox to get >answers to your questions about a VAX, but the right folks at Digital can >tell you all you want to know. You may not like the answers, but you get >it from the source, not from rumor or hearsay. > > Mark E. Larsen > ...ihnp4!druxo!larsen In that case, have I got a deal for you!! :-? brain
david@fisher.UUCP (David Rubin) (02/01/85)
I do not see how this series of articles is appropriate for net.politics. David Rubin
friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley Friesen) (02/02/85)
In article <877@reed.UUCP> schmidt@reed.UUCP (PUT YOUR BELIEFS HERE) writes: >The Mormons do not believe in the divinity of Christ. They may call >themselves Christians, and that's just fine. The encyclopedia can call >them Christians. This is also fine. Religions have usually been worlds >unto themselves as far as definitions are concerned, and I feel I should >give you mine: Christians believe Christ was God. I will agree to this with one minor alteration: Christians believe that the Christ was *uniquely* God. That is he, and he *alone* was God incarnate. The original formulation would include those that believe everyone is God. -- Sarima (Stanley Friesen) {trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen or quad1!psivax!friesen
srm@nsc.UUCP (Richard Mateosian) (02/03/85)
I'm sure this discussion doesn't need to continue to be cross-posted to five
newsgroups. Couldn't you edit the "Newsgroups: " line next time you
follow up on the last follow-up to your previous follow-ups. I suggest
paring it down to net.religion.
--
Richard Mateosian
{allegra,cbosgd,decwrl,hplabs,ihnp4,seismo}!nsc!srm nsc!srm@decwrl.ARPA