mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (01/28/85)
_Orthodox Jews Protest Pland to Rebuild Church in Israel_ [Exerpted from Wash. Post, Jan. 26, 1985] JERUSALEM--Orthodox Jews carrying signs reading "Get Out, Get Out," protested plans to rebuild Israel's largest Baptist church as members of the church staged a silent counterdemonstration near the building, which was destroyed by fire in October 1982. [Two Paragraphs omitted] "There is no room in this neighborhood for a proselytizing church," read a large placard carried by one Hassidic demonstrator. [Two paragraphs omitted] The Narkis Street Church was the biggest Baptist church in Israel and its 350 members formed the largest Christian congregation in the Jewish state. Along with charging that the church was trying to convert Jews, the protesters said its services were too loud, attracting too many worshipers and destroying the quiet of the neighborhood. Even before the church was destroyed, the building was a target of attacks. "We had a firebomb thrown at us in 1973, a mail bomb in 1977, had it painted up with so many words, and then 2 1/2 years ago, the church was burned," said John Anthony, a Bible teacher from Hope, Ark. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
wkp@lanl.ARPA (01/28/85)
Charley Wingate, that great lover of the Jewish people, has returned to his old ways by quoting an article which decries the right of people to resist proselytizing by peaceful means. O.K., Charley. Let me give you one event which I did witness. In August, 1981 I saw your Narkis St. friends distribute small children's books in a Jerusalem park during a peace demonstration. The title of the book was "Great Jewish Prophets." At the end of the book was a picture and description of the "greatest Jewish prophet" You-Know-Who (situated on a cross). Also was detailed a promise of how You-Know-Who will return to Earth again, bringing peace to all mankind. Do we always have to bear the brunt of these child-molesters, Charley? Can't these guys just leave well enough alone? ------------- Yours for TRUE religious tolerance..... bill peter !cmcl2!lanl!wkp
arig@cvl.UUCP (Ari Gross) (01/29/85)
> _Orthodox Jews Protest Pland to Rebuild Church in Israel_ > > [Exerpted from Wash. Post, Jan. 26, 1985] > > JERUSALEM--Orthodox Jews carrying signs reading "Get Out, Get Out," > protested plans to rebuild Israel's largest Baptist church as members > of the church staged a silent counterdemonstration near the building, > which was destroyed by fire in October 1982. > > [Two Paragraphs omitted] > > "There is no room in this neighborhood for a proselytizing church," > read a large placard carried by one Hassidic demonstrator. > > [Two paragraphs omitted] > > The Narkis Street Church was the biggest Baptist church in Israel and > its 350 members formed the largest Christian congregation in the Jewish > state. > > Along with charging that the church was trying to convert Jews, the > protesters said its services were too loud, attracting too many > worshipers and destroying the quiet of the neighborhood. > > Even before the church was destroyed, the building was a target of > attacks. > > "We had a firebomb thrown at us in 1973, a mail bomb in 1977, had it > painted up with so many words, and then 2 1/2 years ago, the church was > burned," said John Anthony, a Bible teacher from Hope, Ark. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe It seems that ORTHODOX JEWS in Jerusalem are really very intolerant of having people of other religions in their midst. As opposed to the Arab population in the Middle East which has tried to destroy Israel 3 times in the last 35 years.Iran and Iraq are extremely tolerant of each other , having killed over 100,000 of their people in a fight to the death over nothing. Consider the tolerance of Syria's Assad, who destroyed all 50,000 inhabitants in the city of Hammad because they were from a sect of Islam that differed from his own.Or, consider the Church's tolerance over the ages, when those of other religions were not only deprived of the right to practice their religion freely -- let alone proselythe to others -- but were burned at the stake for the religious beliefs that they cherished. It would seem that some of us are intolerant of others' intolerance on a very select basis. That to me smacks of bigotry and prejudice. -- ari gross arig@cvl.arpa
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (01/29/85)
In article <20405@lanl.ARPA> wkp@lanl.ARPA writes: >Charley Wingate, that great lover of the Jewish people, >has returned to his old ways by quoting an article which >decries the right of people to resist proselytizing by >peaceful means. >O.K., Charley. Let me give you one event which I did witness. >In August, 1981 I saw your Narkis St. friends distribute small >children's books in a Jerusalem park during a peace demonstration. >The title of the book was "Great Jewish Prophets." At the >end of the book was a picture and description of the "greatest >Jewish prophet" You-Know-Who (situated on a cross). Also was >detailed a promise of how You-Know-Who will return to Earth >again, bringing peace to all mankind. So What? What is so evil about that? >Do we always have to bear the brunt of these child-molesters, Charley? >Can't these guys just leave well enough alone? Oh, puleeze.... Does that really justify fire-bombing a church? As another respondent (whose name escapes me) has pointed out, the article testifies to a certain lack of consideration on both sides. The Baptist congregation, I submit, should be seriously considering relocating to a different site, out of consideration for Hassidic customs. At the same time, I think their Jewish opponents might actually consider civilized nogotiations with the church, instead of attempting to drive them out as if they were a plague of rats. Oh, yeah, the snide comments about my being a "great lover of the jewish people": lighten up on the polemics, will you? Why is it that it is perfectly acceptable to complain about "christian" (the quotes indicating that the people in question often have the most dubious claims to religion) intolerance of Jews, while at the same time, the intolerance of certain Jewish groups is a forbidden subject? Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe "It's always winter--" "And never Christmas!"
cs193bah@unm-la.UUCP (01/30/85)
[Yours truly:] >Do we always have to bear the brunt of these child-molesters, Charley? >Can't these guys just leave well enough alone? [Charley Wingate:] >Oh, puleeze.... Does that really justify fire-bombing a church? Tut, tut, Charley. Why do you assume this was a Jewish action? Maybe it was a Coptic Christian, fundamentalist Muslim, or PLO terrorist action? [Charley Wingate:] >The Baptist congregation, I submit, should be seriously considering >relocating to a different site, out of consideration for Hassidic customs. Good idea. If they continue to be intolerant of Jewish beliefs, how about Beirut? :-) ------ bill peter !cmcl2!lanl!wkp
olsen@wxlvax.UUCP (Neil Olsen) (01/30/85)
In a reply to the posting of an article containing information about
the orthodox Jews vs the Christian Baptist church in Jerusalem, A.Gross
made the following ordering of religious intolerants
(from least to most) :
1 - The ORTHODOX JEWS of Jerusalem
2 - The ARABS of the Middle-East (They tried to dismantle Israel)
3 - The IRAN and IRAK (they are killing each other's populations)
4 - The SYRIAn regime (he destroyed the city of Hamma)
5 - The Christian Church over the ages (They burned the unfaithful
non-christians)
He concludes that it's bigotry and prejudice to critisize the Orthodox
jews'intolerance of the baptist church in Jerusalem.
NONSENSE !
Were we to apply the same reasoning to the holocausts in the history
of mankind, one could well make an ordering based on the number of
atrocities commited :
1 - The NAZIS of Germany in the 1930's
2 - The North-Vietnamese in Asia (South Vietanam and Combodge)
in the late 1970's and early 1980's.
3 - The destruction of the MAYAS and INCAS in central/south America
several centuries ago.
etc..
..and conclude that it's bigotry and prejudice to make a big fuss about
nazism and the jews!!!
Well, I do not think that's right!!
One cannot justify bad by comparing it to worse.
That's double standard.
CHEDLEY C/O ITTVAX!WXLVAX!OLSENdsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) (01/31/85)
[] > "We had a firebomb thrown at us in 1973, a mail bomb in 1977, had it > painted up with so many words, and then 2 1/2 years ago, the church was > burned," said John Anthony, a Bible teacher from Hope, Ark. > Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe How come you don't post anything about the firebombing, swastika painting and burning of Synagogues in the United States? Are you still trying to see if your 'distribution feature' works?
smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steven Bellovin) (01/31/85)
I fail to see why some of my co-religionists are finding all sorts of excuses for folks who firebombed a church in Jerusalem. The neighbors don't like it -- so what? Lots of Cossacks, Poles, Germans, *Arabs*, etc., haven't liked having Jewish neighbors. Many whites have objected to blacks moving in next door. It is very difficult to claim the moral high ground when others discriminate against Jews, but be silent when Jews are discriminating against Christians (to say nothing of resorting to violence). I for one will not remain silent; I will condemn such as often and as loudly as I condemn synagogue bombings, cross burnings, and other acts of bigotry. --Steve Bellovin
mangoe@umcp-cs.UUCP (Charley Wingate) (02/01/85)
In article <277@mhuxi.UUCP> dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) writes: > How come you don't post anything about the firebombing, >swastika painting and burning of Synagogues in the United States? >Are you still trying to see if your 'distribution feature' works? Well, around D.C. we see such articles on the front page of the _Post_, and as the lead story on the evening news, so I guess I just naturally assumed that everyone else was seeing them, too. The article I quoted appeared in an obscure section of the newspaper, and I suspected that few would see it there. I would like to believe that most people have enough moral sense to see that firebombing anything is but a reprehensible act; the point of the posting (besides creating business for net.religion :-)) was to point out the ubiquity of intolerance. Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe
wkp@lanl.ARPA (02/01/85)
> I fail to see why some of my co-religionists are finding all sorts of > excuses for folks who firebombed a church in Jerusalem. The neighbors > don't like it -- so what? Lots of Cossacks, Poles, Germans, *Arabs*, > etc., haven't liked having Jewish neighbors. Many whites have objected > to blacks moving in next door. It is very difficult to claim the moral > high ground when others discriminate against Jews, but be silent when > Jews are discriminating against Christians (to say nothing of resorting > to violence). I for one will not remain silent; I will condemn such > as often and as loudly as I condemn synagogue bombings, cross burnings, > and other acts of bigotry. > > --Steve Bellovin As far as I can tell, I was not finding any excuses for folks (of whatever religion they may be) who firebomb churches anywhere. You are right in condemning such actions everywhere, especially because of the Jewish moral values you uphold. The problem is Charley Wingate. He seems to think that devious psychological manipulations of children by uppity proselytizers is o.k. (spread the good news and all that), and if some extreme Jews or Muslims retaliate, he writes it into net.religion showing how bad they are. In case you think this is an isolated incident, I was just reading in an Israeli newspaper (Yediot Achronot) about two students from Oral Roberts University in the U.S.A. who have admitted being in an anti-Jewish proselytizing program. The program was set up by the University to send a fixed number of students to kibbutzim in Israel each year, and to train these students in how to "bring the Jews to Jesus." Probably when the Israeli government refuses to grant lengthy visas to these people, Charley Wingate will broadcast it all across the net. ------------- bill peter !cmcl2!lanl!wkp happened to get homesick, and asked to be taken out of the pro set up by the University. Ostensibly, the University on summer pr logi manipulations on children reason gets his kicks in this particular way)
rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Dinsdale Piranha) (02/05/85)
> I would like to believe that most people have enough moral sense to > see that firebombing anything is but a reprehensible act; [WINGATE] *I* would like to believe that most people have enough moral sense to see that manipulative proselytizing directed at children is a reprehensible act. But, then, that would be wishful thinking, wouldn't it? :-? -- When you're omniscient, everything's a tautology. Rich Rosen pyuxd!rlr
teitz@aecom.UUCP (Eliyahu Teitz) (02/05/85)
> > In a reply to the posting of an article containing information about > the orthodox Jews vs the Christian Baptist church in Jerusalem, A.Gross > made the following ordering of religious intolerants > (from least to most) : > > 1 - The ORTHODOX JEWS of Jerusalem > 2 - The ARABS of the Middle-East (They tried to dismantle Israel) > 3 - The IRAN and IRAK (they are killing each other's populations) > 4 - The SYRIAn regime (he destroyed the city of Hamma) > 5 - The Christian Church over the ages (They burned the unfaithful > non-christians) > > He concludes that it's bigotry and prejudice to critisize the Orthodox > jews'intolerance of the baptist church in Jerusalem. > NONSENSE ! > > Were we to apply the same reasoning to the holocausts in the history > of mankind, one could well make an ordering based on the number of > atrocities commited : > > 1 - The NAZIS of Germany in the 1930's > 2 - The North-Vietnamese in Asia (South Vietanam and Combodge) > in the late 1970's and early 1980's. > 3 - The destruction of the MAYAS and INCAS in central/south America > several centuries ago. > etc.. > > ..and conclude that it's bigotry and prejudice to make a big fuss about > nazism and the jews!!! > Well, I do not think that's right!! > One cannot justify bad by comparing it to worse. > That's double standard. > How do you number atrocities? People kkilled? Who is to say one is better ( strange way of looking at atrocities ) or worse than the other? Besides, I did not get that impression when I read Gross' article. I just saw a list of intolerances. I think you are reading too much into the order. The point is that we must all learn from these sorry examples in our history to be more tolerant of otes, no matter what they believe. The question that can be asked is : Is tere a limit to this toleration. When a grou knowingly goes against the sensitivities and beliefs of another group, must that second group sit back and ignore te perpetrators? Or should they react in some way? I don't know. There are no set rules for filing a grievance against another group, and besides to whom would one go to complain. Again, we must learn to be more sensitive to other people's feelings. Eliyahu Teitz.
reiher@ucla-cs.UUCP (02/11/85)
In article <277@mhuxi.UUCP> dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) writes: >[] >> "We had a firebomb thrown at us in 1973, a mail bomb in 1977, had it >> painted up with so many words, and then 2 1/2 years ago, the church was >> burned," said John Anthony, a Bible teacher from Hope, Ark. >> Charley Wingate umcp-cs!mangoe > > How come you don't post anything about the firebombing, >swastika painting and burning of Synagogues in the United States? >Are you still trying to see if your 'distribution feature' works? > What precisely is your point here? That, since Jews are badly treated in parts of predominantly Christian America, it's OK for Jews to treat Christians badly in Jerusalem? That it's somehow dishonest to point out only one form of religious intolerance when others are going on elsewhere? That Americans are so anti-Semitic that we have lost any right to criticize the behavior of a portion of the Israeli populace? Firebombing a church/synagogue/generic-place-of-worship (any scientific laboratory in Rich Rosen's case? :-)) is the act of someone who thinks like the Nazis. They may have a different set of prejudices, but they are essentially Nazis. I would have thought that Israelis might be more sensitive to this kind of behavior in themselves than some other peoples, since others' use of these tactics against them has done the Jews so much harm. I suspect that ese Gestapo tactics are condemned by the bulk of the Israelis. Just because Tony Alamo distributes ridiculous, insulting anti- Catholic literature doesn't give me the right to drive out to Arizona or wherever and blow up his church. Sneakily trying to convert Jewish children strikes me as less offensive than that, and hardly likely to be very effective, either. I credit Israeli children with more brains than that. Protests, pickets, letters to the newspapers are more reasonable alternatives than letter bombs. -- Peter Reiher reiher@ucla-cs.arpa {...ihnp4,ucbvax,sdcrdcf}!ucla-cs!reiher