[net.religion] God and His Manifestations - Progressive Revelation

vc@hou2h.UUCP (Verbus M. Counts) (01/05/85)

 The most fundamental of all Bahai' principles are these:

                  The Oneness of God

                  The Oneness of His Messengers

                  The Oneness of mankind


 This article will focus on "God and His Messengers".

 From the Baha'i writings:

 God is like the sun.  Just as the physical sun is  the  source  of  all
 physical light, God is the source of all spiritual light.  The sun does
 not come down to earth to sustain life - it sends its like-giving rays.

 The infinite, unknowable God does not come down to earth - He sends His
 Messengers.   As  perfect  mirrors reflect the light of the sun, so His
 Messengers perfectly reflect the Word of God.  Therefore, one Messenger
 is not greater than another.  They are equal.  For this reason, Bahai's
 have the same  love  and  reverence  for  Christ  that  they  have  for
 Baha'`u'llah - because they are one in spirit.

 There is no exclusive salvation for the Bahai', the  Christian  or  the
 Jew.   God  is  not in  competition with him Himself. His revelation is
 orderly and progressive, and He sends His Messengers  whenever  mankind
 is in need of a fresh outpouring of His Word. Thus Moses may be likened
 to the seed; Christ to the tree; and Baha`'u'llah the fruit.  From  the
 fruit  will  come the seed of succeeding cycles in which new Messengers
 of God will bring an outward or social truth which  is  fitted  to  the
 needs of the age in which He appears.

               DIVINE REVELATORS

 RELIGION                  REVELATORS

 SABAEAN                   UNKNOWN
                           5000 B.C.

 HINDU                     KRISHNA
                           2000 B.C.

 JEWISH                    MOSES
                           1330 B.C.


 ZOROASTRIAN               ZOROASTER
                           1000 B.C.

 BUDDHIST                  GAUTAMA BUDDHA
                           560 B.C.

 CHRISTIAN                 JESUS CHRIST
                           1 A.D.

 ISLAMIC                   MUHAMMAD
                           622 A.D.

 BABI'                     THE BAB
                           1844 A.D.

 BAHA'I                    BAHA`'U'LLAH
                           1853 A.D.

 From the writings of Baha`'u'llah:

 Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the prophets of God is  one
 and  the same.  Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There
 is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message.  They all
 have but one purpose their secret is the same secret.  To prefer one in
 honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in  no  wise
 to  be  permitted.   Every  true  Prophet hath  regarded His Message as
 fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every  other  Prophet  gone
 before   Him.   If  any  man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this
 truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and  unseemly  language,
 no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would
 ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief.

 Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any
 distinction  between  any  of  the  Manifestations  of His Cause, or to
 discriminate against the signs that  have  accompanied  and  proclaimed
 their  Revelation.  This indeed is the true meaning Divine Unity, if ye
 be of them that apprehend and  believe  this  truth.   Be  ye  assured,
 moreover,  that  the  works  and  acts  of  each and every one of these
 Manifestations  of  God,  nay  whatever  pertaineth  unto   them,   and
 whatsoever  they  may  manifest in the future, are all ordained by God,
 and are a reflection  of  His   Will  and  Purpose.  Whoso  maketh  the
 slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their
 messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God,  hath
 repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.

 From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably
 clear  that  in  the  kingdoms of earth and  heaven there must needs be
 manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act  as  a  Manifestation  and
 Vehicle  for  the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the
 Sovereign Lord of all. Through the teachings of this Daystar  of  Truth
 every  man  will  advance and develop until he attaineth the station at
 which he can manifest all the potential forces with  which  his  inmost
 true  self  hath  been endowed. It is for the this very purpose that in
 every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have
 appeared  amongst men, and evince such power as is born of God and such
 might as only the Eternal can reveal.


Regards,
Verbus M. Counts   AT&T Bell Labs             The Word of God(religion) is one,
(201) 564-2510     101 JFK Parkway            though the speakers are many ...
ihnp4!pata!vca     Room 1l-423
January 4,1985     Short Hills, NJ 07078                  The Bahai Faith

rta@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA (Robert Aarhus) (01/05/85)

>From : rta@cmu-cs-spice (Bob Aarhus @ Carnegie-Mellon University CS)

	One of the principle foundations of the Baha'i religion
	is that the world's current major religions are merely
	successive updates of the same religion. The prophets of
	these religions -  Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, 
	Jesus, and Muhammad - were all Manifestations of God. 
	Each of	them tailored their preachings according to what the
	peoples of their lifetimes needed to hear from God. In the
	words of Baha'u'llah, each of these manifestations was...

	"uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith."
					(Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 154)

	However, on closer inspection, this supposed unity behind
	religions begins to break down. Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad
	all preached of one God. Krishna taught of many Gods; Buddha
	taught no God. Such a fundamental difference in beliefs makes
	this principle questionable at best.

	For a case in point, consider the preachings of Jesus. Many
	people, Christains and Non-Christians alike, do not deny that
	Jesus made claims that he was Divine...

		"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
		comes to the Father but through me." (John 14 : 6, NIV)

		"I and the Father are one."  (John 10 : 30, NIV)

		"'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before
		 Abraham was born, I AM!'" (John 8 : 58, NIV)

	[The last quote shows Jesus using the name of God given to
	Moses to tell the Israelites -- "This is what you are to
	say to the Israelites : I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3 : 14)]

	Now, we can take this one of two ways : either Jesus is or he
	isn't who he says he is. If he is, then all his teachings are true,
	and the Baha'i faith crumbles to dust. If he isn't, he is at best
	a madman, at worst a liar -- in either case certainly not a 
	Manifestation of God, as per Baha'u'llah.

	Therefore, for the Baha'i to say "We have a religion that takes
	some of its ideas from other religions of the world" makes the
	Baha'i faith worthy of further investigation; however, to say
	"We have a religion that all other religions attest to and is
	derived from" shows much wishful thinking on the part of 
	Baha'u'llah, and casts doubt on his own claim of infallibility.

	Bob Aarhus, CMU Computer Science, Spice Project
	ARPA : rta@cmu-cs-x.arpa	
	UUCP : seismo!cmu-cs-x!rta
	

lip@masscomp.UUCP (John Lipinski) (01/07/85)

In article <697@hou2h.UUCP> vc@hou2h.UUCP (Verbus M. Counts) writes:
>
> From the writings of Baha`'u'llah:
>
> Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the prophets of God is  one
> and  the same.  Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There
> is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message.  They all
> have but one purpose their secret is the same secret.  To prefer one in
> honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in  no  wise
> to  be  permitted.   Every  true  Prophet hath  regarded His Message as
> fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every  other  Prophet  gone
> before   Him.

But how do you explain conflicting and contradicting messages among
religions?  For example,

	1. The jewish religion states that Jesus is a false prophet.
	2. Many societies of indians of the western hemisphere practice
	   polytheism while christianity and judaism are strictly
	   monotheistic.
	3. The koran and the bible have several cases of conflicting
	   moral messages and messages that conflict over who should
	   control certain lands.

					- John Lipinski

vc@hou2h.UUCP (Verbus M. Counts) (01/10/85)

 From the book "FOUNDATIONS OF WORLD UNITY" By Abdu'l-Baha:

 "The divine prophets have revealed and  founded  religion.   They  have
 laid  down  certain  laws  and heavenly principles for the  guidance of
 mankind.  They have  taught  and  promulgated  the  knowledge  of  God,
 established  praiseworthy  ethical  ideals  and  inculcated the highest
 standards of virtue in the  human  world.   Gradually   these  heavenly
 teachings  and  foundations  of  reality  have been  beclouded by human
 interpretations and dogmatic  imitations  of  ancestral  beliefs.   The
 essential  realities which the prophets labored so hard to establish in
 human hearts and minds while undergoing ordeals and suffering  tortures
 of  persecution,  have  now well nigh vanished.  Some of these heavenly
 messengers have been killed, some imprisoned; all of them despised  and
 rejected  while  proclaiming the reality of divinity.  Soon after their
 departure from this world, the essential truth of their  teachings  was
 lost sight of and dogmatic imitations adhered to."

 Also from the same book:

    " .... In reality the foundations of the divine  religions  are  one
 and  the  same. The differences which have arisen between us are due to
 blind imitations of dogmatic beliefs and adherence to  ancestral  forms
 of  worship.  His  Holiness  Abraham  was  the  founder of reality. His
 Holiness Moses, His Holiness Christ, His  Holiness  Mohammed  were  the
 manifestations  of reality.  His Holiness Baha`'u'llah was the glory of
 reality. This is not simply an assertion; it will be proved.

 Let me ask your closet attention  in  considering  this  subject.   The
 divine  religions  embody  two kinds of ordinances.  First, those which
 constitute essential or spiritual teachings of the Word of  God.  These
 are  faith  in  God,  the acquirement of the virtues which characterize
 perfect  manhood,  praiseworthy  moralities,  the  acquisition  of  the
 bestowals and bounties emanating from the divine effulgences; in brief,
 the ordinances which concern the realm of morals  and ethics.  This  is
 the  fundamental  aspect of religion of God and this is of the  highest
 importance because knowledge of God is the fundamental  requirement  of
 man.   Man  must  comprehend  the oneness of divinity.  He must come to
 know and acknowledge the precepts of God and realize for  a   certainty
 that  the  ethical  development of humanity is dependent upon religion.
 He must get rid of all defects and  seek  the  attainment  of  heavenly
 virtues in order that he may prove to be the image and likeness of God.
 It is recorded in the holy bible that God said,"Let us make man in  our
 image,  after  our  likeness."  It  is  self-evident that the image and
 likeness mentioned do not apply to the form and semblance  of  a  human
 being  because  the  reality  of divinity is not limited to any form or
 figure.  Nay, rather the attributes  and  characteristics  of  God  are
 intended.   Even  as God is pronounced to be just, man must likewise be
 just. As God is loving and kind to all men, man must likewise  manifest
 loving-kindness to all humanity. As God is loyal and truthful, man must
 show forth the  same  attributes  in  the  human  world.  Evan  as  God
 exercises  mercy  toward  all,  man  must  prove   himself  to  be  the
 manifestation of mercy. In a word, the  "image  and  likeness  of  God"
 constitute  the  virtues  of  God,  and  man  is intended to become the
 recipient  of  the  effulgences  of  divine  attributes.  This  is  the
 essential  foundation  of all the divine religions, the reality itself,
 common to all.  His Holiness Abraham  promulgated  this;  His  Holiness
 Moses  proclaimed  it.  His Holiness Christ and all the prophets upheld
 this standard and aspect of divine religion.

 Second: Laws and ordinances  which  are  temporary  and  non-essential.
 These  concern human transaction and relations. They are accidental and
 subject to  change according to the exigencies of time and place. These
 ordinances  are neither permanent nor fundamental.  For instance during
 the time of NOAH it was expedient  that  sea  foods  be  considered  as
 lawful;  therefore  God  commanded Noah to partake of all marine animal
 life. During the time of Moses this was  not  in  accordance  with  the
 exigencies  of  Israel's  existence,  therefore  a  second  command was
 revealed partly abrogating the law concerning marine foods. During  the
 time  of  Abraham  - Upon him be peace! - camel's milk was considered a
 lawful and acceptable food; likewise the flesh of the camel; but during
 Jacob's  time  because  of a certain vow he made, this became unlawful.
 These are non-essential temporary laws.  In the holy  bible  there  are
 certain  commandments which according to those bygone times constituted
 the very spirit of the age, the very light of that period. For  example
 according to the law of the torah if a man committed theft of a certain
 amount they cut off his hand. Is it practicable and  reasonable in this
 present  day  to cut off a man's hand for the theft of a dollar? In the
 torah there are ten ordinances concerning murder. Could these  be  made
 effective  today?  Unquestionably  no; times have changed. According to
 the explicit text of the bible if a man should change or break the  law
 of  the  Sabbath  or  if he should touch fire on the Sabbath he must be
 killed.  Today such a law is abrogated. The torah declares  that  if  a
 man  should  speak  a disrespectful word to his father he should suffer
 the penalty of death.  Is this possible of enforcement now?  No;  human
 conditions  have  undergone changes. Likewise during the time of Christ
 certain minor ordinances conformable to that period were enforced.

 It has been shown conclusively therefore that  the  foundation  of  the
 religion  of  God  remains  permanent and unchanging.  It is that fixed
 foundation which insures the progress and stability of the body politic
 and  the  illumination  of humanity. It has ever been the cause of love
 and justice  amongest  men.  It  works  for  the  true  fellowship  and
 unification  of  all  mankind  for  it  never changes is not subject to
 supersedure. The accidental or non-essential laws  which  regulate  the
 transactions  of  the  social  body  and  everyday  affairs of life are
 changeable and subject to abrogation."

Regards,
Verbus M. Counts   AT&T Bell Labs             The Word of God(religion) is one,
(201) 564-2510     101 JFK Parkway            though the speakers are many ...
ihnp4!pata!vca     Room 1l-423
January 10,1985    Short Hills, NJ 07078                  The Baha'i Faith

tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (01/13/85)

It appears that one of the effects of being a Baha'i is being unable to say
things in your own words, preferring long quotes from overwritten lectures.
This is not an appropriate way to answer specific, concise questions.  This
once, I will try to cope with the quote as if it were an answer, but in the
future I expect to see clear answers in the Baha'i supporter's own words.

It appears that what is being claimed is that Buddha and Krishna WERE
monotheists, but that their followers twisted things around after their
deaths to remove monotheistic elements from the religion.  What a bunch of
self-serving crap.  If you wish to make that sort of ridiculous claim, then
provide substantial proof for your assertions.  (If that is not what you
were saying, I make no apologies, since you should have stated your position
explicitly rather than regurgitating quotes at us.)

That is not respecting the religions of Buddhism and Hinduism.  That is
discarding them and making up new religions using some of the same names.
Why should you think that those religions are wrong, instead of saying that
Jesus taught atheism in his life, but followers changed things around after
his death?  The reason is simple: Baha'i was invented by monotheists and its
believers are disenchanted monotheists from Judaism, Christianity, and
Islam.  They are perfectly willing to impose their own religious desires on
other religions, without true respect for them.

The desire to use various religions in one's work is an admirable one.  In
mine, I use symbolism from Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism,
psychology, shamanism, Taoism, and of course from Thelema, the eclectic
religion which provides a framework for using these divergent symbolisms.
I do not claim, though, that Jews were talking about Nuit, Hadit, and
Ra-Hoor-Khuit all along, and I would expect a Jew to be insulted if I did
so.  Mystical experience and perceptions of deity share common features in
all traditions, and so all traditions may be learned from and used.  But
they do not by any means all say the same thing, particularly about God or
gods.  To claim otherwise is to argue from bias or ignorance.
-=-
Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center
ARPA:	Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K	uucp:	seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:	74176,1360	audio:	shout "Hey, Tim!"

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are
but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains."
Liber AL, II:9.

laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (01/14/85)

I don't know too much about Baha'i, but if that quote was indicative
of what they believe, then I can assert that they don't know very much
about Buddhism or Tantric Hinduism (the only sort of Hinduism I know
very much about -- I suspect they don't know very much about Hinduism of
any sort, but can't prove it.)

One thing which is going to trouble Westerners which are discovering
Buddhism is that there is remarkably little concern with *why* life works,
compared to *how* life works. The idea is not to get a hold of some set
of ultimate truths, but to get together something which *works*, and
*is useful*.

Whether there is one god, or lots of gods, or no god, is very useful
information if you want to get a real picture of ``the truth of the
universe'' but according to Gautama [the historical Buddha] one should
stop seeking explanations of how things got to be the way they are
and just concentrate on the business at hand.

There is a very good passage in which the Buddha is engaged in a long
discussion with a holy man names Potthapada. [Actually, Potthapada
does most of the talking...]

First Potthapada asks if consciousness is different from the soul.
Gautama has no answer. He then asks ``Is the word eternal? Is this
alone the truth and any other view mere folly?'' He goes on 
and on with more and more detailed questions on the nature of the
soul, and the nature of the world. To each one of these questions
Gautama replies ``That too, Potthapada, is a matter upon which I
have expressed no opinion.'' Asked why, the Buddha responded ``this
question is not calculated to profit; it is not concerned with the
Dharma; it does not concern itself even with the elements of right
conduct, nor to detachment, nor to purification from lusts, nor
to quietude, nor to tranquilisation of the heart, nor to the insight of
the higher stages of the Path, nor to Nirvana. Therefore I express no
opinion about it.''

When asked what he does express an opinion upon, he goes back to
the basics: dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, marga.

So, if you find a room full of Buddhists, you will be sure to
find some who think that there is no god (and the whole concept a
trap and attatchment), some who think there are lots of gods, and
a whole lot more who express no opinion on the subject. it is just
not very useful -- if it helps you to think there is only one god,
fine, if it helps you to think there are a lot of gods, fine, and
if it helps you to think there is no god, also fine.

The notion of ``one god, the creator'' is also not likely to go
down very well among people who have already experienced the mystic
understanding that everything *is* god, and that there is no
separateness between ``him/her/it/them'' and ``the world''. Did you
create your arm? The question is hard to think about...

Laura Creighton
utzoo!laura

vc@hou2h.UUCP (Verbus M. Counts) (02/17/85)

 The most fundamental of all Bahai' principles are these:

                  The Oneness of God

                  The Oneness of His Messengers

                  The Oneness of mankind


 This article will focus on "God and His Messengers".

 From the Baha'i writings:

 God is like the sun.  Just as the physical sun is  the  source  of  all
 physical light, God is the source of all spiritual light.  The sun does
 not come down to earth to sustain life - it sends its like-giving rays.

 The infinite, unknowable God does not come down to earth - He sends His
 Messengers.   As  perfect  mirrors reflect the light of the sun, so His
 Messengers perfectly reflect the Word of God.  Therefore, one Messenger
 is not greater than another.  They are equal.  For this reason, Bahai's
 have the same  love  and  reverence  for  Christ  that  they  have  for
 Baha'`u'llah - because they are one in spirit.

 There is no exclusive salvation for the Bahai', the  Christian  or  the
 Jew.   God  is  not in  competition with him Himself. His revelation is
 orderly and progressive, and He sends His Messengers  whenever  mankind
 is in need of a fresh outpouring of His Word. Thus Moses may be likened
 to the seed; Christ to the tree; and Baha`'u'llah the fruit.  From  the
 fruit  will  come the seed of succeeding cycles in which new Messengers
 of God will bring an outward or social truth which  is  fitted  to  the
 needs of the age in which He appears.

               DIVINE REVELATORS

 RELIGION                  REVELATORS

 SABAEAN                   UNKNOWN
                           5000 B.C.

 HINDU                     KRISHNA
                           2000 B.C.

 JEWISH                    MOSES
                           1330 B.C.


 ZOROASTRIAN               ZOROASTER
                           1000 B.C.

 BUDDHIST                  GAUTAMA BUDDHA
                           560 B.C.

 CHRISTIAN                 JESUS CHRIST
                           1 A.D.

 ISLAMIC                   MUHAMMAD
                           622 A.D.

 BABI'                     THE BAB
                           1844 A.D.

 BAHA'I                    BAHA`'U'LLAH
                           1853 A.D.

 From the writings of Baha`'u'llah:

 Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the prophets of God is  one
 and  the same.  Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There
 is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message.  They all
 have but one purpose their secret is the same secret.  To prefer one in
 honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in  no  wise
 to  be  permitted.   Every  true  Prophet hath  regarded His Message as
 fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every  other  Prophet  gone
 before   Him.   If  any  man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this
 truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and  unseemly  language,
 no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would
 ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief.


Regards,
Verbus M. Counts   AT&T Bell Labs             The Word of God(religion) is one,
(201) 564-2510     101 JFK Parkway            though the speakers are many ...
ihnp4!pata!vca     Room 1l-423
February 17,1985   Short Hills, NJ 07078                    The Bahai Faith

tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (02/20/85)

Is there some reason that this nonsense was posted again less than two
months after the original posting?  I checked the dates and it does not
appear to be one of the accidental reappearances.  Verbus, in case you'd
forgotten, there are quite a few unanswered questions pending from the
original posting, which neither you nor Janet have deigned to answer.

I guess I was right the first time; Baha'is are incapable of writing things
in their own words and answering specific questions.  I still hope to be
proven wrong.
-=-
Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center
ARPA:	Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K	uucp:	seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim
CompuServe:	74176,1360	audio:	shout "Hey, Tim!"

"Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are
but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains."
Liber AL, II:9.