vc@hou2h.UUCP (Verbus M. Counts) (01/05/85)
The most fundamental of all Bahai' principles are these: The Oneness of God The Oneness of His Messengers The Oneness of mankind This article will focus on "God and His Messengers". From the Baha'i writings: God is like the sun. Just as the physical sun is the source of all physical light, God is the source of all spiritual light. The sun does not come down to earth to sustain life - it sends its like-giving rays. The infinite, unknowable God does not come down to earth - He sends His Messengers. As perfect mirrors reflect the light of the sun, so His Messengers perfectly reflect the Word of God. Therefore, one Messenger is not greater than another. They are equal. For this reason, Bahai's have the same love and reverence for Christ that they have for Baha'`u'llah - because they are one in spirit. There is no exclusive salvation for the Bahai', the Christian or the Jew. God is not in competition with him Himself. His revelation is orderly and progressive, and He sends His Messengers whenever mankind is in need of a fresh outpouring of His Word. Thus Moses may be likened to the seed; Christ to the tree; and Baha`'u'llah the fruit. From the fruit will come the seed of succeeding cycles in which new Messengers of God will bring an outward or social truth which is fitted to the needs of the age in which He appears. DIVINE REVELATORS RELIGION REVELATORS SABAEAN UNKNOWN 5000 B.C. HINDU KRISHNA 2000 B.C. JEWISH MOSES 1330 B.C. ZOROASTRIAN ZOROASTER 1000 B.C. BUDDHIST GAUTAMA BUDDHA 560 B.C. CHRISTIAN JESUS CHRIST 1 A.D. ISLAMIC MUHAMMAD 622 A.D. BABI' THE BAB 1844 A.D. BAHA'I BAHA`'U'LLAH 1853 A.D. From the writings of Baha`'u'llah: Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him. If any man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and unseemly language, no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief. Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers. From the foregoing passages and allusions it hath been made indubitably clear that in the kingdoms of earth and heaven there must needs be manifested a Being, an Essence Who shall act as a Manifestation and Vehicle for the transmission of the grace of the Divinity Itself, the Sovereign Lord of all. Through the teachings of this Daystar of Truth every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true self hath been endowed. It is for the this very purpose that in every age and dispensation the Prophets of God and His chosen Ones have appeared amongst men, and evince such power as is born of God and such might as only the Eternal can reveal. Regards, Verbus M. Counts AT&T Bell Labs The Word of God(religion) is one, (201) 564-2510 101 JFK Parkway though the speakers are many ... ihnp4!pata!vca Room 1l-423 January 4,1985 Short Hills, NJ 07078 The Bahai Faith
rta@cmu-cs-spice.ARPA (Robert Aarhus) (01/05/85)
>From : rta@cmu-cs-spice (Bob Aarhus @ Carnegie-Mellon University CS)
One of the principle foundations of the Baha'i religion
is that the world's current major religions are merely
successive updates of the same religion. The prophets of
these religions - Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha,
Jesus, and Muhammad - were all Manifestations of God.
Each of them tailored their preachings according to what the
peoples of their lifetimes needed to hear from God. In the
words of Baha'u'llah, each of these manifestations was...
"uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith."
(Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 154)
However, on closer inspection, this supposed unity behind
religions begins to break down. Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad
all preached of one God. Krishna taught of many Gods; Buddha
taught no God. Such a fundamental difference in beliefs makes
this principle questionable at best.
For a case in point, consider the preachings of Jesus. Many
people, Christains and Non-Christians alike, do not deny that
Jesus made claims that he was Divine...
"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one
comes to the Father but through me." (John 14 : 6, NIV)
"I and the Father are one." (John 10 : 30, NIV)
"'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before
Abraham was born, I AM!'" (John 8 : 58, NIV)
[The last quote shows Jesus using the name of God given to
Moses to tell the Israelites -- "This is what you are to
say to the Israelites : I AM has sent me to you" (Exodus 3 : 14)]
Now, we can take this one of two ways : either Jesus is or he
isn't who he says he is. If he is, then all his teachings are true,
and the Baha'i faith crumbles to dust. If he isn't, he is at best
a madman, at worst a liar -- in either case certainly not a
Manifestation of God, as per Baha'u'llah.
Therefore, for the Baha'i to say "We have a religion that takes
some of its ideas from other religions of the world" makes the
Baha'i faith worthy of further investigation; however, to say
"We have a religion that all other religions attest to and is
derived from" shows much wishful thinking on the part of
Baha'u'llah, and casts doubt on his own claim of infallibility.
Bob Aarhus, CMU Computer Science, Spice Project
ARPA : rta@cmu-cs-x.arpa
UUCP : seismo!cmu-cs-x!rta
lip@masscomp.UUCP (John Lipinski) (01/07/85)
In article <697@hou2h.UUCP> vc@hou2h.UUCP (Verbus M. Counts) writes: > > From the writings of Baha`'u'llah: > > Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the prophets of God is one > and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There > is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all > have but one purpose their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in > honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise > to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as > fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone > before Him. But how do you explain conflicting and contradicting messages among religions? For example, 1. The jewish religion states that Jesus is a false prophet. 2. Many societies of indians of the western hemisphere practice polytheism while christianity and judaism are strictly monotheistic. 3. The koran and the bible have several cases of conflicting moral messages and messages that conflict over who should control certain lands. - John Lipinski
vc@hou2h.UUCP (Verbus M. Counts) (01/10/85)
From the book "FOUNDATIONS OF WORLD UNITY" By Abdu'l-Baha: "The divine prophets have revealed and founded religion. They have laid down certain laws and heavenly principles for the guidance of mankind. They have taught and promulgated the knowledge of God, established praiseworthy ethical ideals and inculcated the highest standards of virtue in the human world. Gradually these heavenly teachings and foundations of reality have been beclouded by human interpretations and dogmatic imitations of ancestral beliefs. The essential realities which the prophets labored so hard to establish in human hearts and minds while undergoing ordeals and suffering tortures of persecution, have now well nigh vanished. Some of these heavenly messengers have been killed, some imprisoned; all of them despised and rejected while proclaiming the reality of divinity. Soon after their departure from this world, the essential truth of their teachings was lost sight of and dogmatic imitations adhered to." Also from the same book: " .... In reality the foundations of the divine religions are one and the same. The differences which have arisen between us are due to blind imitations of dogmatic beliefs and adherence to ancestral forms of worship. His Holiness Abraham was the founder of reality. His Holiness Moses, His Holiness Christ, His Holiness Mohammed were the manifestations of reality. His Holiness Baha`'u'llah was the glory of reality. This is not simply an assertion; it will be proved. Let me ask your closet attention in considering this subject. The divine religions embody two kinds of ordinances. First, those which constitute essential or spiritual teachings of the Word of God. These are faith in God, the acquirement of the virtues which characterize perfect manhood, praiseworthy moralities, the acquisition of the bestowals and bounties emanating from the divine effulgences; in brief, the ordinances which concern the realm of morals and ethics. This is the fundamental aspect of religion of God and this is of the highest importance because knowledge of God is the fundamental requirement of man. Man must comprehend the oneness of divinity. He must come to know and acknowledge the precepts of God and realize for a certainty that the ethical development of humanity is dependent upon religion. He must get rid of all defects and seek the attainment of heavenly virtues in order that he may prove to be the image and likeness of God. It is recorded in the holy bible that God said,"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." It is self-evident that the image and likeness mentioned do not apply to the form and semblance of a human being because the reality of divinity is not limited to any form or figure. Nay, rather the attributes and characteristics of God are intended. Even as God is pronounced to be just, man must likewise be just. As God is loving and kind to all men, man must likewise manifest loving-kindness to all humanity. As God is loyal and truthful, man must show forth the same attributes in the human world. Evan as God exercises mercy toward all, man must prove himself to be the manifestation of mercy. In a word, the "image and likeness of God" constitute the virtues of God, and man is intended to become the recipient of the effulgences of divine attributes. This is the essential foundation of all the divine religions, the reality itself, common to all. His Holiness Abraham promulgated this; His Holiness Moses proclaimed it. His Holiness Christ and all the prophets upheld this standard and aspect of divine religion. Second: Laws and ordinances which are temporary and non-essential. These concern human transaction and relations. They are accidental and subject to change according to the exigencies of time and place. These ordinances are neither permanent nor fundamental. For instance during the time of NOAH it was expedient that sea foods be considered as lawful; therefore God commanded Noah to partake of all marine animal life. During the time of Moses this was not in accordance with the exigencies of Israel's existence, therefore a second command was revealed partly abrogating the law concerning marine foods. During the time of Abraham - Upon him be peace! - camel's milk was considered a lawful and acceptable food; likewise the flesh of the camel; but during Jacob's time because of a certain vow he made, this became unlawful. These are non-essential temporary laws. In the holy bible there are certain commandments which according to those bygone times constituted the very spirit of the age, the very light of that period. For example according to the law of the torah if a man committed theft of a certain amount they cut off his hand. Is it practicable and reasonable in this present day to cut off a man's hand for the theft of a dollar? In the torah there are ten ordinances concerning murder. Could these be made effective today? Unquestionably no; times have changed. According to the explicit text of the bible if a man should change or break the law of the Sabbath or if he should touch fire on the Sabbath he must be killed. Today such a law is abrogated. The torah declares that if a man should speak a disrespectful word to his father he should suffer the penalty of death. Is this possible of enforcement now? No; human conditions have undergone changes. Likewise during the time of Christ certain minor ordinances conformable to that period were enforced. It has been shown conclusively therefore that the foundation of the religion of God remains permanent and unchanging. It is that fixed foundation which insures the progress and stability of the body politic and the illumination of humanity. It has ever been the cause of love and justice amongest men. It works for the true fellowship and unification of all mankind for it never changes is not subject to supersedure. The accidental or non-essential laws which regulate the transactions of the social body and everyday affairs of life are changeable and subject to abrogation." Regards, Verbus M. Counts AT&T Bell Labs The Word of God(religion) is one, (201) 564-2510 101 JFK Parkway though the speakers are many ... ihnp4!pata!vca Room 1l-423 January 10,1985 Short Hills, NJ 07078 The Baha'i Faith
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (01/13/85)
It appears that one of the effects of being a Baha'i is being unable to say things in your own words, preferring long quotes from overwritten lectures. This is not an appropriate way to answer specific, concise questions. This once, I will try to cope with the quote as if it were an answer, but in the future I expect to see clear answers in the Baha'i supporter's own words. It appears that what is being claimed is that Buddha and Krishna WERE monotheists, but that their followers twisted things around after their deaths to remove monotheistic elements from the religion. What a bunch of self-serving crap. If you wish to make that sort of ridiculous claim, then provide substantial proof for your assertions. (If that is not what you were saying, I make no apologies, since you should have stated your position explicitly rather than regurgitating quotes at us.) That is not respecting the religions of Buddhism and Hinduism. That is discarding them and making up new religions using some of the same names. Why should you think that those religions are wrong, instead of saying that Jesus taught atheism in his life, but followers changed things around after his death? The reason is simple: Baha'i was invented by monotheists and its believers are disenchanted monotheists from Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They are perfectly willing to impose their own religious desires on other religions, without true respect for them. The desire to use various religions in one's work is an admirable one. In mine, I use symbolism from Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, psychology, shamanism, Taoism, and of course from Thelema, the eclectic religion which provides a framework for using these divergent symbolisms. I do not claim, though, that Jews were talking about Nuit, Hadit, and Ra-Hoor-Khuit all along, and I would expect a Jew to be insulted if I did so. Mystical experience and perceptions of deity share common features in all traditions, and so all traditions may be learned from and used. But they do not by any means all say the same thing, particularly about God or gods. To claim otherwise is to argue from bias or ignorance. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." Liber AL, II:9.
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (01/14/85)
I don't know too much about Baha'i, but if that quote was indicative of what they believe, then I can assert that they don't know very much about Buddhism or Tantric Hinduism (the only sort of Hinduism I know very much about -- I suspect they don't know very much about Hinduism of any sort, but can't prove it.) One thing which is going to trouble Westerners which are discovering Buddhism is that there is remarkably little concern with *why* life works, compared to *how* life works. The idea is not to get a hold of some set of ultimate truths, but to get together something which *works*, and *is useful*. Whether there is one god, or lots of gods, or no god, is very useful information if you want to get a real picture of ``the truth of the universe'' but according to Gautama [the historical Buddha] one should stop seeking explanations of how things got to be the way they are and just concentrate on the business at hand. There is a very good passage in which the Buddha is engaged in a long discussion with a holy man names Potthapada. [Actually, Potthapada does most of the talking...] First Potthapada asks if consciousness is different from the soul. Gautama has no answer. He then asks ``Is the word eternal? Is this alone the truth and any other view mere folly?'' He goes on and on with more and more detailed questions on the nature of the soul, and the nature of the world. To each one of these questions Gautama replies ``That too, Potthapada, is a matter upon which I have expressed no opinion.'' Asked why, the Buddha responded ``this question is not calculated to profit; it is not concerned with the Dharma; it does not concern itself even with the elements of right conduct, nor to detachment, nor to purification from lusts, nor to quietude, nor to tranquilisation of the heart, nor to the insight of the higher stages of the Path, nor to Nirvana. Therefore I express no opinion about it.'' When asked what he does express an opinion upon, he goes back to the basics: dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, marga. So, if you find a room full of Buddhists, you will be sure to find some who think that there is no god (and the whole concept a trap and attatchment), some who think there are lots of gods, and a whole lot more who express no opinion on the subject. it is just not very useful -- if it helps you to think there is only one god, fine, if it helps you to think there are a lot of gods, fine, and if it helps you to think there is no god, also fine. The notion of ``one god, the creator'' is also not likely to go down very well among people who have already experienced the mystic understanding that everything *is* god, and that there is no separateness between ``him/her/it/them'' and ``the world''. Did you create your arm? The question is hard to think about... Laura Creighton utzoo!laura
vc@hou2h.UUCP (Verbus M. Counts) (02/17/85)
The most fundamental of all Bahai' principles are these: The Oneness of God The Oneness of His Messengers The Oneness of mankind This article will focus on "God and His Messengers". From the Baha'i writings: God is like the sun. Just as the physical sun is the source of all physical light, God is the source of all spiritual light. The sun does not come down to earth to sustain life - it sends its like-giving rays. The infinite, unknowable God does not come down to earth - He sends His Messengers. As perfect mirrors reflect the light of the sun, so His Messengers perfectly reflect the Word of God. Therefore, one Messenger is not greater than another. They are equal. For this reason, Bahai's have the same love and reverence for Christ that they have for Baha'`u'llah - because they are one in spirit. There is no exclusive salvation for the Bahai', the Christian or the Jew. God is not in competition with him Himself. His revelation is orderly and progressive, and He sends His Messengers whenever mankind is in need of a fresh outpouring of His Word. Thus Moses may be likened to the seed; Christ to the tree; and Baha`'u'llah the fruit. From the fruit will come the seed of succeeding cycles in which new Messengers of God will bring an outward or social truth which is fitted to the needs of the age in which He appears. DIVINE REVELATORS RELIGION REVELATORS SABAEAN UNKNOWN 5000 B.C. HINDU KRISHNA 2000 B.C. JEWISH MOSES 1330 B.C. ZOROASTRIAN ZOROASTER 1000 B.C. BUDDHIST GAUTAMA BUDDHA 560 B.C. CHRISTIAN JESUS CHRIST 1 A.D. ISLAMIC MUHAMMAD 622 A.D. BABI' THE BAB 1844 A.D. BAHA'I BAHA`'U'LLAH 1853 A.D. From the writings of Baha`'u'llah: Know thou assuredly that the essence of all the prophets of God is one and the same. Their unity is absolute. God, the Creator, saith: There is no distinction whatsoever among the Bearers of My Message. They all have but one purpose their secret is the same secret. To prefer one in honor to another, to exalt certain ones above the rest, is in no wise to be permitted. Every true Prophet hath regarded His Message as fundamentally the same as the Revelation of every other Prophet gone before Him. If any man, therefore, should fail to comprehend this truth, and should consequently indulge in vain and unseemly language, no one whose sight is keen and whose understanding is enlightened would ever allow such idle talk to cause him to waver in his belief. Regards, Verbus M. Counts AT&T Bell Labs The Word of God(religion) is one, (201) 564-2510 101 JFK Parkway though the speakers are many ... ihnp4!pata!vca Room 1l-423 February 17,1985 Short Hills, NJ 07078 The Bahai Faith
tim@cmu-cs-k.ARPA (Tim Maroney) (02/20/85)
Is there some reason that this nonsense was posted again less than two months after the original posting? I checked the dates and it does not appear to be one of the accidental reappearances. Verbus, in case you'd forgotten, there are quite a few unanswered questions pending from the original posting, which neither you nor Janet have deigned to answer. I guess I was right the first time; Baha'is are incapable of writing things in their own words and answering specific questions. I still hope to be proven wrong. -=- Tim Maroney, Carnegie-Mellon University Computation Center ARPA: Tim.Maroney@CMU-CS-K uucp: seismo!cmu-cs-k!tim CompuServe: 74176,1360 audio: shout "Hey, Tim!" "Remember all ye that existence is pure joy; that all the sorrows are but as shadows; they pass & are done; but there is that which remains." Liber AL, II:9.