hua@cmu-cs-gandalf.ARPA (Ernest Hua) (02/18/85)
> Here is why I believe God exists ... > > My body, including my brain, is a machine. A machine can't cause > itself to move (or think, in the case of the brain). A machine > needs an outside agent to cause it to move. Since I can't cause > my own thoughts or actions, my thoughts and actions must be caused > by an outside agent. That outside agent must be God, who must cause > all thoughts and actions as a result of Her/His First Cause or Big > Bang. God is a programmer, and the universe is a computer. > > If you understand this, re-read this message substituting words > as follows: my -> your > I -> you > God -> I or Me > > Peter Crames ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!ptc Well, Peter, how did managed to conclude that your brain is dependent upon something other than the rest of your body? A machine can be programmed to function independently. Of course, most machines that we know of require a human programmer. But does it necessarily follow that your brain require a programmer. Does your brain look like any one of the countless machines that man builds? Mine certainly does not! If it were a simple machine, it would not be too difficult for scientists to figure out how we think. Unfortunately, it is far too complex for anyone to handle. (This will change as computers advance.) I guess, for all intents and purposes, we can say that a brain can think independently and creatively because it is so unpredictable. You will want to read DRAGONS OF EDEN by Dr. Carl Sagan. It is an excellant book that describes the evolution of the brain in non- technical language. I do not understand your substitutions. The last one would introduce a lot of incorrect grammatic constructions, rendering some sentences confusing at best. Please explain. Keebler
long@oliveb.UUCP (Dave Long) (02/20/85)
In article <cmu-cs-g.210> hua@cmu-cs-gandalf.ARPA (Ernest Hua) writes: | > Here is why I believe God exists ... | > | > My body, including my brain, is a machine. A machine can't cause | > itself to move (or think, in the case of the brain). A machine | > needs an outside agent to cause it to move. Since I can't cause | > my own thoughts or actions, my thoughts and actions must be caused | > by an outside agent. That outside agent must be God, who must cause | > all thoughts and actions as a result of Her/His First Cause or Big | > Bang. God is a programmer, and the universe is a computer. | > | > If you understand this, re-read this message substituting words | > as follows: my -> your | > I -> you | > God -> I or Me | > | > Peter Crames ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!ptc | [A bunch of arguments that support what Peter Crames has written, but ar- gued as though the author did not understand Crames' intent] | | I do not understand your substitutions. The last one would introduce a lot | of incorrect grammatic constructions, rendering some sentences confusing at | best. Please explain. What Mr. Crames was doing was to start his article with a fairly typical creationist argument, then showing how silly the entire argument was by prov- iding the mechanism for making substitutions which did not change the (il)lo- gical structure of the argument to any great extent, but did trivialize the entire (ir)rationality of the argument. Sorry about posting this, but I felt that if one person did not fully un- derstand Crames' message, others might not have also, and I don't like seeing any people argue when they are both trying to say the same thing. Dave Long
ptc@cybvax0.UUCP (Peter Crames) (02/21/85)
> > Here is why I believe God exists ... > > > > My body, including my brain, is a machine. A machine can't cause > > itself to move (or think, in the case of the brain). A machine > > needs an outside agent to cause it to move. Since I can't cause > > my own thoughts or actions, my thoughts and actions must be caused > > by an outside agent. That outside agent must be God, who must cause > > all thoughts and actions as a result of Her/His First Cause or Big > > Bang. God is a programmer, and the universe is a computer. > > > > If you understand this, re-read this message substituting words > > as follows: my -> your > > I -> you > > God -> I or Me > > > > Peter Crames ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!ptc > > Well, Peter, how did managed to conclude that your brain is dependent upon > something other than the rest of your body? A machine can be programmed to > function independently. Of course, most machines that we know of require > a human programmer. But does it necessarily follow that your brain require > a programmer. Does your brain look like any one of the countless machines > that man builds? Mine certainly does not! If it were a simple machine, > it would not be too difficult for scientists to figure out how we think. > Unfortunately, it is far too complex for anyone to handle. (This will > change as computers advance.) I guess, for all intents and purposes, we > can say that a brain can think independently and creatively because it is > so unpredictable. You will want to read DRAGONS OF EDEN by Dr. Carl Sagan. > It is an excellant book that describes the evolution of the brain in non- > technical language. > > I do not understand your substitutions. The last one would introduce a lot > of incorrect grammatic constructions, rendering some sentences confusing at > best. Please explain. > > Keebler I don't believe that a machine can be programmed to function independently. Every machine is dependent on its programmer. The brain does not look like any machine that man builds, and it certainly is not simple. But the brain is still a machine. It is made up of the same chemical elements as everything else in the universe, and it is subject to the same laws of cause and effect. I also don't believe that the brain is unpredictable. Just because the brain is too complex for us to predict, does not mean that it is not predictable if you had enough information about its structure. My substitutions go to the root of mystical thought, and are difficult to explain in everyday language. What I am saying is that you are not the source of your thoughts and actions. The silent inner "voice" that you "hear" when thinking is not caused by you -- it is caused by God, as a result of the First Cause or Big Bang. Since God is the source of your thoughts, what you normally call "I" is actually God. The Biblical statement "Be still, and know that I am God" (Psalms 46:10) sums up what I am trying to say. Peter Crames ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!ptc