arndt@lymph.DEC (02/12/85)
While some of my best friends are RCs (Roman Catholics) and I wouldn't want my daughters to marry one, I still must make a comment on their behalf. The Roman Catholics have one of the STRONGEST posititons on salvation by grace alone of all the Christian groups! It is in the statements that come from the Council of Trent (and remember, the statements of the Councils ARE authoritive for the RC Church!). The Council of Trent was called in response to the Reformers charges that the Church was weak on the whole issue of 'works' and that it should be 'sola fide', faith alone, that was needed for salvation. Well, the statements of the Council, if you look them up, say "anyone who says that salvation comes from works or a mixture of grace and works, IS CURSED!!" That's more than some modern protestant groups! The 'grace' of the 'Saints' comes into play for those ALREADY saved. Not for sinners. It is true, that like every other religious group, the Catholic laymen often don't know the 'law' of the Church, but the official stand of the Church is VERY clear on this point. At the Council of Trent there were centain members who were pushing for reform, after all the reformers were Catholics themselves - Luther was put out of the Church - and it is speculated that if the Council had not been shortened by the outbreak of war we might see a very different Roman Catholic Church today! Regards, Ken Arndt
sdyer@bbnccv.UUCP (Steve Dyer) (02/13/85)
Ken, although you seem to have read some on the Council of Trent,
I think you are misrepresenting the RC's position on faith, works
and justification. The Council's rather extreme statement
("...anathema sit") was designed to clarify a situation grown muddy
with the rising Protestant movement and its controversy--as you
say, a bit too late.
But this is not the same as Luther's "sola fide", or the Calvinist
model of faith as a manifestation of pre-ordained salvation. It
is fair to say that the Catholic position on Faith and Works goes
roughly like this:
Faith may exist without Works, though this is not a "living" Faith;
that is, it is somehow flawed or incomplete.
A Living Faith engenders and is manifested in Good Works.
Good Works are saving only insofar as they are manifestations of Faith.
Naturally, those more qualified than I in such matters should feel free
to correct any doctrinal errors.
--
/Steve Dyer
{decvax,linus,ima,ihnp4}!bbncca!sdyer
sdyer@bbnccv.ARPAdan@scgvaxd.UUCP (Dan Boskovich) (02/15/85)
In article <542@decwrl.UUCP> arndt@lymph.DEC writes: > > >The Roman Catholics have one of the STRONGEST posititons on salvation by >grace alone of all the Christian groups! It is in the statements that come > >Well, the statements of the Council, if you look them up, say "anyone who >says that salvation comes from works or a mixture of grace and works, >IS CURSED!!" That's more than some modern protestant groups! The 'grace' of This may be their official statement, but it is contradicted in practice and in other statements of official dogma. For example, the taking of the Eucharest is quite essential for salvation. Actually, it is RC dogma which states that baptism is essential for salvation (a work), and that baptism only takes away the sins of the person up to the point of baptism. Then, as the "Custodian of Grace" the RC church has the power and responsibility of keeping their disciples saved through the administration of the "seven" sacraments. In short, an RC is never assured of salvation. He must always strive to receive the sacraments on a regular basis, confess his sins to a priest, receive the body and blood of Christ (holy eucharist), and even perform penance when his priest deems necessary. The RC in Roman definition is saved by Grace, but this grace is earned by the series of works described above. The RC may not call baptism, communion, confession, penance etc. works, but the Reformers surely did!
features@ihuxf.UUCP (M.A. Zeszutko) (02/22/85)
Dan Boskovich writes: > .... In short, an RC is never assured of salvation. Oh yes s/he is! After death, one can sin (or confess sin) no more. That's when one finds out where one gets to spend eternity. -- aMAZon @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL; ihnp4!ihuxf!features "Love your self's self where it lives." -- Anne Sexton