hua@cmu-cs-gandalf.ARPA (Ernest Hua) (02/27/85)
----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > I don't believe that a machine can be programmed to function > > > independently. Every machine is dependent on its programmer. > > > > I hope you did not mean that literally! A video game, for example > > is quite independent of its programmer. (You didn't really expect > > a programmer sitting in the machine manipulating it, did you?!) > > Are you suggesting that a video game has free will? If not, > then it must be ultimately dependent on a programmer, who > "dwells within" the video game via his program. Excuse me, but I did not say that YOU nor I had free will as it is commonly understood! Free will implies that YOU are an entity that exists within your body. (something like a prisoner inside a cell.) You assume that there is such an entity and that your body is nothing more than a machine. You failed to take into account that your "soul" (or whatever you would like to call it) might be an abstraction that you (or someone else) see in the behavior of the machine. Can you tell me exactly how your "machine" behaves? Given only the natural factors, can you prove that your machine will function differently than when there is some "soul" inside it? In fact, can you prove the existence of this "soul"? How can you assume such a thing? Can you define it in terms of first-order properties? etc... I can give you hundreds of questions that you couldn't possibly answer... unless you are God or something [sarcasm] ... By the way, I do not go for the artistic/romantic idea of the programmer "dwelling" in the machine. He is either physically there or he isn't! He may have set the machine instructions to a particular pattern, but once he is done, he is not there. > > > The brain does not look like any machine that man builds, and it > > > certainly is not simple. But the brain is still a machine. It is > > > made up of the same chemical elements as everything else in the > > > universe, and it is subject to the same laws of cause and effect. > > > > Perhaps you would like to define the ... scratch that ... > > I DEMAND that you define the laws of cause and effect which you > > appeal to here. I don't see how any laws of cause and effect that > > I know support your argument. (I hope that you are not refering > > to pseudo-laws like, loving beings are caused by loving beings. > > There is no such law.) > > By the "laws of cause and effect", I am referring to the > physical-chemical laws that act upon matter, such as gravity, > etc. I also suspect that there are deeper psychological laws, > like the one that you mentioned. "Physical-chemical laws" ?! Really?! (I am not against the laws. I am against what you say they imply/cause/whatever...) My next demand is that you tell me exactly how these laws limit your machine to something less than human. (this is probably not an accurate description of your statement, but I think the point is there. It appears that you want to say that your body is a machine that is LIMITED by these laws of cause and effect to the point that it is impossible for the machine to have behavior that matches any- thing human. Therefore, SOMETHING ELSE must be influencing/controlling the machine.) Deeper psychological laws?! Really?! And what do you "suspect" exists in the form of these deeper psychological laws? > > > My substitutions go to the root of mystical thought, and are difficult > > > to explain in everyday language. What I am saying is that you are > > > not the source of your thoughts and actions. The silent inner "voice" > > > > ... what inner voice?! if a voice is silent, how can you hear it?! I > > have yet to hear a voice (much less a silent one) when I think ... > > > > When reading or thinking about something, you "hear" an inner > "voice" inside your brain. I am not referring to an audible > voice, which you would hear when someone is talking to you. Oh REALLY?! You must be gifted. (Or deranged.) > > > that you "hear" when thinking is not caused by you--it is caused by God, > > > as a result of the First Cause or Big Bang. Since God is the source of > > > your thoughts, what you normally call "I" is actually God. The Biblical > > > statement "Be still, and know that I am God" (Psalms 46:10) sums up what > > > I am trying to say. > > > > Once again, I must insist that you do not make such grand assertions for > > which you do not provide a single bit of proof. You assume God; you > > assume that there is some entity, "you", that is not the source of its > > behavior; you assume that God is the only such source; you assume the > > existence of a First Cause; you assume God is the First Cause; etc... > > > > Keebler > > My basic assumption is that my body (including brain) is a > machine that needs an external force exerted upon it in order > for it to move. I can not prove this assumption. Alternatively, > you make the assumption that you can cause your own body to move, > and your conclusions are a result of that assumption. I AM NOT MAKING THAT ASSUMPTION! I do not consider myself to be a separate entity from my body. Therefore I, myself, can make myself move because I am only myself and not some combination of spirit and body. I do not have proof of your assumption either. Therefore I must reject it as complete nonsense. You probably believe in some spirit or soul or God because that is the belief that has been injected into you. (Don't accuse me of the same because none of my influences felt that way, but I have for a LONG time.) You also make other assumptions besides your invalid basic assumption. I mentioned some of them already, so I won't bother to write them again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Keebler
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (03/03/85)
Are we going to do this again? The existence of free will does not imply the existence of a soul, or a ``me trapped inside the body''. Certainly there are lots of dualists who belive in free will. But there are a lot of materialists as well who have the same notion. Laura Creighton utzoo!laura