[net.religion] "Let's go back to the old ways"

rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff) (02/26/85)

>      I submit that most of the problems in today's modern world are caused
> by the discarding of the old traditions, beliefs, and liturgies by the world's
> major religions.  I believe that a general return to the Old Ways would
> bring a substantial improvement to the quality of life for the world.  I 
> personnally have found that my understanding of the world around me, and
> my sense of purpose in life, has improved greatly since I discovered a
> Conservative belief about religion.  [DON BLACK - dec-nisysg!black]

An analysis would indicate that most of the problems in today's modern world
are caused by *the* *fact* *that* discarding most of the old traditions (e.g.,
treating members of minority/dissenting groups and women as inferiors,
restriction of individual rights and enforcement of strict roles, etc.) in favor
of more humane (and human) rights for all people RESULTS in problems for
society:  people who are "used to" certain levels of privilege at the expense
of other people, people who expect certain role behaviors of other people and
are disappointed when they are not followed, have "problems" associated with
the changes in society.  The call to return to the "old ways" is nothing more
than a call to "give me back my privileges and make my life more predictable",
since the old ways offered more predictable avenues for such people.  The
problems are that 1) if everyone is going to have individual rights, then
things ARE going to change and things ARE going to be unpredictable, and 2)
statement (1) is rather cold towards those who DO want to "go back".  I
could say "that's tough" (which, in a way, I feel obliged to), but their
problems ARE problems of adjustment that need to be resolved.  One might ask
"Why should THEY have to readjust?  Why not just leave things as they are as
long as *someone* has to suffer?"  The answer is that in the longterm future
fewer people will "have to suffer" if such things change, as opposed to
perpetuating their suffering by "leaving things alone".

>      I would like to make the observation that "Conservative" views on almost
> any subject, and religion in particular, are very unpopular these days.  The
> old beliefs and values that served well for millenia have in general been
> thrown to the winds because "they don't fit in today's modern world."  "We
> don't need to follow Scripture on that subject.  That only applied back then."
> People tend to follow the crowd, and pick up the currently popular fads.
> "Try it, you'll like it."

You say these things as if we're supposed to think "but those aren't reasons
for 'throwing things to the winds'" OR "but those things aren't true at all".
I'd venture that they ARE reasons and that they ARE true.  WHOM did those
beliefs and values "serve well for millenia"?  Every individual person?
Or just a select few?  Or "society at large"?  Are human beings supposed to 
behave in the way that best suits "society at large", or is "society at large"
supposed to be designed to best serve the needs of its individuals?

>      I also do believe that this return to the Old Ways should absolutely
> include a tolerance for the beliefs and opinions of everyone else.  We were
> all created as individuals, and as such we are entitled to our own personal
> views.  We are also entitled to allow those beliefs, opinions, and views
> dictate how we conduct our lives and affairs as an individual.  And if
> some of us join together as a group with common beliefs, then that group
> has the equal right to exist, even if its beliefs and philosophies conflict
> with those of another group or individual.

1)  Your statement in your own first paragraph about distaste for homosexuality
(among other things) betrays the fact that you don't really believe this.  (*)
2)  What it really boils down to is that one person's/group's rights end when
they begin interfere with those of another person/group.

(* - see below)
> Please understand that it was not meant as a snub to the ladies of the group.
> Please also understand that there are also some of us who, while being ded-
> icated to the concept of the equality of the sexes, firmly believe that the 
> philosophies of Unisex and/or Homosexuality are distasteful at best.
----

>      I have found that many people consider the Christian Identity movement
> to be very bigoted, almost Neo-Nazi.  Nationalistic it may be, but definitely
> NOT socialist.  And I haven't yet found any of our clergy advocating the
> opening of "refugee" camps or the displacement of other religious or ethnic
> groups.  On the other hand, there are undeniably several movements whose 
> only goal is to destroy religion and enslave anyone who espouses it.  

This is nothing more than catering to fear in the absence of evidence.  Tell
people that there "are" movements "whose only goal is to destroy religion and
enslave anyone who espouses it" to engender their fear and rile them up
against anything remotely contrary to their way of thinking.  Can you tell us
about some of these movements?  It is often a tactic of those who wish to
repress others to gather people together and warn them that THEY will be
repressed unless they "do something".  I believe that this is exactly the
tactic that the so-called Christian Right is engaging in.  You say
"undeniably".  *I* deny it.  For you to use such a word, you should have
evidence to back it up.

>      I will end this submission with a question for thought:
>      What if the United States really was founded with a religious purpose,
> and what if our prosperity as a Nation really is linked to our willingness
> to follow religious laws?

These are as important a set of questions as the "What If" questions they used
to ask on Saturday Night Live.  ("What if Spartacus had had a Piper Cub?" 
"What if Superman had grown up in Nazi Germany in the 1930's?")  This country
was founded with an ecumenical purpose:  freedom for all individuals regardless
of personal belief or ancestry.  No, it didn't adhere to that goal fully from
the beginning, due to longstanding and well-embedded prejudices and ideas.
And, of course, it doesn't yet adhere to it.  There's a long way to go. 
Returning to the "old ways" is taking that road in the opposite direction,
undoing all the good work that has been done.  Our prosperity as a nation, and
more importantly, as a world (how can you expect to stay prosperous at the
expense of others who are not?), is based on how well society provides for
the independence and freedom of every individual.

> (OK, I admit the next question obviously is, whose do we follow?  Answer:
> That's up to the individual.)

And if the individual chooses "none", that's his/her right, too.
-- 
"Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?  I dunno."
				Rich Rosen 	ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr

rlr@pyuxd.UUCP (Professor Wagstaff) (03/03/85)

> Rather than start with the quotes, I have put them at the end, because they
> are so lengthy.  Essentially, what we have here are two extreme viewpoints:
> 
>   (A) Don Black: "The trouble with modern society is that the traditional
>                  values have been rejected."
> 
>   (B) Rich Rosen: "The traditional values were wrong and should be utterly
>                   rejected, even though this will inevitably result in some
>                   societal distress."  ["charley" WINGATE]

And to think I accused you of twisting other people's words to suit your
own needs.  I'm so sorry.  (Is a smiley really necessary   >:-| !!!!!)
If you need to know what it is I said, read my article, since "charley"'s
summary is to the truth what junk food is to nutrition.  I guess I should
applaud your actually including the original quotes later in the article.
But it doesn't serve as recompense for distorting what I said at the
beginning of your article.  Please compare "charley"'s distortion above to
what I said in my original article.
-- 
"Which three books would *you* have taken?"
				Rich Rosen	ihnp4!pyuxd!rlr