david@terak.UUCP (David Jayakaran) (03/07/85)
[] You are right about witch burning. It was done world wide and my naming Salem was just a representative case, not meant as the sole occurrence in history. Nor am I implying that the real witches at Salem should have been put to death. Show me in the Bible about all these "rules" to decide who was a witch and who was not. If it is not in the Bible, why call it Christian? You see where I'm coming from.... Christian (to me) represents a very profound title that carries great responsibility, selflessness and commitment to Jesus Christ. Let's not sling it around to include people who couldn't care less about God, but use "christian" to give a cloak of respectability to what they do. Personally, I could find a lot of better things to do, than being in such people's shoes. Like throwing myself off a 20 story building. Like skydiving...without a parachute. Or walking out on the freeway in rush hour traffic. Sinners in the hands of an angry God (shudder)..... A voice in the wilderness : - ----- -- --- ---------- I personally KNOW my Lord and Savior (not just know ABOUT Him) well enough to realize that His Judgement is just as sure and relentless as His love is and I live my life knowing that I will make an account to God for every word that I have said and every action done. No, I am not walking in continual fear of a spiritual "big brother" but facts are facts. Every human being is going to make an account to Him, no matter how much they may disbelieve, intellectualize, philosophize, debate, yell, kick or scream. What if the Bible is right and you are wrong, O unbeliever? It may be too late for you when you find out. Ever tried reminiscing about a life-threatening incident that happened to you, where you barely escaped with your life? Not pleasant, huh? Why? Because it constantly reminds you of how easily it could have gone the other way. In my time I was the heretic's heretic (shudder) and when I look at the "intellectual" garbage of some of these people posting to the above-mentioned newsgroups I say to myself "There, but for the Grace of God, go I." Then I go home and fall on my face and cry out to God for more Grace. Four years a Christian....the joy and adventure keep getting more intense. God, why isn't living for you drab and boring, like they tell me it is? Why don't I feel sick and demented, and needing psychiatric help, like they tell me? Why are you so real to me, and not a mental trip, like they tell me? Why don't I get migraines like everyone around me? Why don't I feel like yelling and cursing when somebody steps on me on their way to the top? Why do I feel this love for people who despise the ground I walk on? Where are those recurring illnesses of my pagan heretic days? Why have I been having such vibrant health these past few years? Lord, whatever you have been doing with me, I like it. Let me have more of the same. From the keys of David Jayakaran, ex pagan heretic. Quote from Martin Taylor's posting titled *Law and Christianity (sort of)* : ----- ---- ------ -------- ------- ------ -------------------------------- > Salem isn't the only place in the world to harbour Christians, you know. > Thousands of people were burned as witches throughout the Christian world. > I have a certificate (authentic) that says I am not a witch, issued in > Oudewater (Netherlands). Why do they issue such certificates? Because > one of the tests of a witch was that s/he weighed less than a formula > based on height dictated, and in many places the public weighmaster could > be bribed to show that an unwanted person was as light as a feather on > the scales. At Oudewater, the weighmaster was shown to be incorruptible > and the Emperor gave a permanent certification for the Oudewater scales. > Anyone shown there to be not a witch was free of suspicion for life. > Your definition of Christian conforms to mine (essentially to live as > Jesus proclaimed), but it sure lets out most of the people who have > historically believed themselves to be Christian, and moral and upright > and dutybound to ensure that whatever happened to some poor unfortunate > body, the soul would go to heaven. -- David uucp: ...{decvax,hao,ihnp4,seismo}!noao!terak!david phone: [602] 998-4800 us mail: Terak Corporation, 14151 N 76th street, Scottsdale, AZ 85260 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth His handywork. Psalm 19:1
laura@utzoo.UUCP (Laura Creighton) (03/11/85)
I have done a rather extensive survey of the biographies of the inquisitors. I did not find that they were evil men who consciously used Christianity to justify the atrocities that they desired to commit. On the contrary, I found that they were sincerely convinced that The God of the Old and New Testament was engaged in a struggle against the forces of evil. They were committed to their faith and their side of the struggle and they unquestionally believed that heretics and pagans were in league with the Devil in a cosmic battle of Good versus Evil with ``men's souls'' as the prizes. I get the distinct impression that David Jayakaran is more interested in the reputation of Christianity (we wouldn't want the name of the religion to be associated with those horrid inquisitors) rather than the excesses of religious zeal. To say the least, I do not find this comforting. If they come to my door to lock me up in an asylum (oops, double speak prefers that one calls them mental institutions, or better mental hospitals, or hospitals for the desturbed) I may remember that according to David Jayakaran these people aren't ``real Christians'' but I would much rather that the ``real'' ones kept the ``false'' ones from my door in the first place. This, I suppose is the real difference. There is no way that I would talk about Salem witch burnings. Nobody was burned at Salem, since the special court conviened in Salem tried to follow British law. Burning, under English Law in 1692 was reserved for treason and treason alone -- both ``high'' (rebellion against the king) and ``low'' (murdering one's husband). To be burnt as a witch in England one had to be convicted of using witchcraft either to murder your husband or to attack the sovereign. Witchcraft, per se was a hanging offense -- not that all convicted witches were hung in England, either, as England was relatively merciful compared to other countries at that time. Nor would I describe it as the killing of innocent (women) citizens. 20 people were put to death (hung) and 2 ``died in prison'' -- one of whom, was crushed to death. Those put to death were not, for the most part, citizens -- slaves, transients, beggers, cripples and other ``people of poor repuation'' bore the brunt of it. (There is some doubt as to whether there were *any* citizens in Salem in 1692. The English government was in the process of examining and questining Salem's very constitution -- and had suspended its ability to function autonomously. This is why a special court was convened -- not, as some have argued, out of religious fervour, but simply because there was no court at that time. Without the special convention, the accused, both those found innocent and those found guilty would have to wait in prison for years until their case could go to court. Since they had to pay for their stay in jail, innocent or guilty, this would bankrupt the innocent.) In any case, I would never, even with a smiley face, ask ``can I go watch''. In 1968 a witch was burned outside of Mexico City, and in 1970 one was stoned to death in Nicaragua. These are the last 2 cases I know of, but there may be others. In any case, I still do not know what to make of: Honey, you better believe it's coming. It may shock you who will be called the heretic. Not you, but people like me. So rest easy, it'll pass ya by. Is this a joke? Or does he think that I am so lacking in compassion that I would think that it is marvellous that people are coming to kill and torture him for his religious convictions? Or is he welcoming this since he considers ``real Christians'' to be the ones that have undergone martyrdom? Any way I slice it I don't get it -- so ``resting easy'' I am not... Laura Creighton utzoo!laura
brower@fortune.UUCP (Richard Brower) (03/13/85)
In article <431@terak.UUCP> david@terak.UUCP (David Jayakaran) writes: >Show me in the Bible about all these "rules" to decide who was a witch and >who was not. If it is not in the Bible, why call it Christian? You see >where I'm coming from.... Christian (to me) represents a very profound >title that carries great responsibility, selflessness and commitment to >Jesus Christ. Let's not sling it around to include people who couldn't >care less about God, but use "christian" to give a cloak of respectability >to what they do. The question that I must ask then is, where are you on the street corners where the witch burners claiming to be Christians are? Where are your denouncements of the Jerry Falwell's in your midst? If it walks like a duck... >What if the Bible is right and you are wrong, O unbeliever? It >may be too late for you when you find out. Why should I believe that billions of hindu's, buddists, jews and moslems have been wrong? Why do you believe them wrong? When you find out, it may be to late for you. -- Richard A. Brower Fortune Systems {ihnp4,ucbvax!amd,hpda,sri-unix,harpo}!fortune!brower